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ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER: 

Welcome to This Being Human. I’m your host Abdul-Rehman Malik. On this podcast, I talk to extraordinary people from all over the world whose life, ideas and art are shaped by Muslim culture.

 

YASMEEN LARI

A time comes in your life when you feel that you know it’s okay what you’ve been doing. But if it’s not getting anywhere, if you don’t feel that it’s really something that you want to carry on, then I think you have to change track.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:

It’s hard to overstate how much of an impact Yasmeen Lari has had on the field of architecture. Recognized as Pakistan’s first female architect, she established her name by designing some of the country’s most iconic buildings and helping to craft the country’s visual identity. Her work includes landmarks like the Finance and Trade Centre, the Taj Mahal Hotel in Karachi, and the Pakistan State Oil Head Office – big, brutalist concrete structures that you can’t miss.

 

So it’s all the more striking that she’s since done a 180, giving up her corporate practice to focus on sustainability and humanitarianism. Now working at the intersection of architecture, climate activism, and social justice, she uses the power of design to help those living on the margins. Earlier this year, Yasmeen was awarded one of the world’s highest honours in architecture, the Royal Gold Medal from the Royal Institute of British Architects.

 

Today, I’ll speak to her about why she changed paths so dramatically, and what she thinks of that earlier work that made her a starchitect. I reached her in Karachi, Pakistan.

 

YASMEEN LARI:

There are young people who respond better with my kind of thought process. I think it’s something that resonates with them because it’s all about the difficulties everybody is facing and the challenges that we are all facing in this century. So, you know, I think it’s probably young people understand it better than others.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

It’s fascinating that you say that, because I also mentioned to my father, who is you know, he’s coming up to 80 this year, that we were going to be speaking and he was terribly excited. He was like, “This is something I can’t wait to listen to.” But I think that’s what’s unique about you, Yasmeen. Of the many things that are remarkable is that in some ways your career has been so vast that you’re speaking across generations now.

 

YASMEEN LARI

Well, I hope it makes sense of what I’m saying. And I hope people follow also what I say. Otherwise, it probably won’t be any use. So let’s see.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Let’s see. Yasmeen, I’m going to jump right into it. With your permission, I want to begin at a more personal place. And something that as I was preparing for today kind of struck me and I resonated with. These last few years have been a time of incredible loss. And I find that grief and the process of grieving has become part of what it means to be alive. And in some ways, the pandemic showed this up in ways that perhaps we couldn’t have imagined. And I know you lost your beloved husband in the first year of the pandemic. I lost my closest friend and mentor just as lockdown began around the world. And more recently, I lost my mother. And so this idea of grief and grieving Yasmeen have been really present in my heart. And then I was looking at your work. And, you know, although this has been a time of loss and pain and hurt, your work has also been responding, for a long time, to loss and pain and hurt, the displacement of people, the shrinking rights given to women, economic and political repression. So the question that stayed with me was, what place does grief play in your work today?

 

YASMEEN LARI:

I’m not sure whether it’s grief so much, Rehman. I think it’s more like looking at injustices that are abound in my country and especially injustices towards women now that, of course, leads to grief as well, but I think there is a slight difference in how you deal with the two emotions. Because as you rightly say, loss of our beloved ones is very difficult to carry always. But, you know, what was surprising was during that COVID time, which was really I mean, COVID is a very cruel disease because it allows no time to really even, you know, prepare for the loss that you know might be coming your way. And that’s the worst thing about it, I think. Because, you know, you realize, yes, people will have to go and you will let them go. But with every kind of other ailment, you will know or expect it or anticipate it. In this case, you never know until the last moment whether somebody will survive or not. So that is the worst thing about it. And also the way the protocols were at the time, I couldn’t see my husband once I took him into the hospital, into the ICU. That was it. I never saw him again, because he had to be carried afterwards just to the graveyard and so on. So what was for me amazing was that I suffered from the same strain. But for whatever reason, I was saved. I did not die. So I feel that I carry a certain responsibility now to be able to pay back for whatever I’ve had through my life. And also, you know, there’s just so much that requires to be done. And especially now with the last year’s flood, it’s the most devastating flood ever that you can imagine. And now there’s something like at least three, probably in four million families that have nothing. They have no shelter. They have no food. They have really literally nothing. And I believe something like 10 million kids are vulnerable to disease. So it’s a very bad time. But going back to COVID-19, you know, when I thought at that time, because all of us suffered and COVID-19 does not differentiate between people who live in palaces or the ones who live in shanties. For COVID 19, it strikes the same way, everybody. And so when I’d hope that by the end of it, once you had control over it, the world will change. That we will have a more kind of egalitarian sort of communities living together, or at least everybody will have the same kind of environment and better living conditions. But soon we’ve gone back to the same kind of way of living, the same kind of carbon emissions, the same kind of very lavish lifestyles, whoever can afford it. And the rest, of course, are languishing in whatever state they might be in. So the disparities have not lessened. I think in many ways they might have even grown further.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Yasmeen as you’re speaking, I sense, you know, not just a feeling, but a passion and a present urgency in your voice and and mission. And as you sort of enter this phase of your career, do you find yourself feeling that the crisis is more urgent than ever and that your work is more important than ever?

 

YASMEEN LARI:

Well, you know, for the longest time, I felt that if somehow I could stop displacement because I’ve seen women and children particularly suffering from displacement. Because, as you know, Pakistan is among the frontline states in terms of climate change and disasters. And we’ve just seen so many of them. And every time it happens and people who would want to rise up, they cannot because the next one starts strikes again. So vulnerabilities keep on increasing. There’s no possibility of any reduction. And the last year’s one, and also as you know, the frequency is increasing, the intensity is increasing. I mean, we had one where so many people got displaced and Turkey had one where 50,000 people lost their lives. It’s not something that I mean, I don’t think disasters are discriminating again. They can strike anywhere.

 

And what I feel now, which I think is essential, is to see how do we help out people to be able to help themselves. I mean, this is my mission now, because no amount of funding from anywhere in the world will be able to suffice or will be able to reach out to people who have lost so much. Also because when you look at the aid giving agencies, when we look at the world banks of the World or other banks that give out loans, they’re not even looking at the impact of what they’re doing in terms of construction. If we know that 40% of all emissions are due to the way we construct, then why today in Pakistan, with millions of dollars being gifted or being loaned by the World Bank and others, they still insist on making these brick by brick and concrete structures, which will be high carbon. And how many will be able to get to it because it’s a very high cost. And on top of that, no skills are being developed. So how will they fend for themselves? I mean, I think it’s a crazy thing when people are not realizing what is the need of the art today. It is very different what they might have thought in earlier times. So this, I think, is very tragic.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

It’s been an incredible journey for you, Yasmeen. You know, when I look at the arc of your incredible career, you know, you began in your early years designing these large brutalist buildings like the Finance and Trade Centre and the Pakistan State Oil head office. And you’ve moved from that type of design into the work that you’re speaking about now – sustainable architecture, working with marginalized communities, understanding the climate catastrophe. Walk us through this journey from the sort of the at one time celebrated world of international modernism to zero carbon zero carbon architecture. Tell us about those early years when you were in the middle of that, at that time, what would have been a revolutionary movement, particularly for a female architect?

 

YASMEEN LARI:

Yeah well. Of course, I was trained as a modern architect. Contemporary architecture was the way to go, and that’s what one did. But I think you also have to remember that Pakistan is an incredible country. It has so many opportunities and so much has not been done that whatever you want to do, you’ll find there’s a way to get in there and be productive. So I was very lucky to have been a Pakistani, to have wanted to just work in my country. I had no idea because as you read about me, they know that I, unfortunately, had a very privileged background which did not allow me to understand what actually what our cultural traditions were. I mean, you also have to remember that I grew up, probably one of the first generation of people who grew up in post-colonial world. And whatever the colonial powers had left for us, we were all obviously affected by that. And my father, particularly, who had been in the Indian civil service, he was one of the bureaucrats who served the British just before independence. So obviously, you know, and he’d been to Oxford. I mean, this was done. They were all sent off to Oxford or Cambridge. So he came back with all the, what he thought were the Western and modern ideas. And so that was a period in which everybody wanted to just emulate the West in every possible manner. So when I got back and my husband had been also to Oxford, he studied politics, philosophy and economics. But luckily when he came back, he belonged to the same family. But his father had been in politics, so he was more into public service. So then we were able to go to Old Town that I’d never seen before in my life earlier. I was able to see how things were done, what were the people like and so on. And I think that did open my eyes quite a bit. So I was able to do some social housing based on our traditions. I learned to or tried to understand what our traditions had been. So that’s why a deep study had to be done of our heritage and craft and intangible heritage and all the rest of it, that Pakistan is just a treasure house for all that. So just that my life led me to places and a quirk of fate, if you like, that I got these opportunities. So I got these chances of doing things that many people would not have got. So what else do you expect from me then Rehman? I mean, this had to be, won’t it?

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Yasmeen, you just said something that kind of struck me, was that bringing your education and your global learning back to Pakistan and in a way, discovering your country for the first time. As you said, it was a surprising experience, but was it kind of an unsettling experience? That all of this, as you said, rich culture, life, history was right there and in a way you’d never seen it before.

 

YASMEEN LARI:

I think I felt that I was such a novice in all this that I had to learn more, so I guess in a sense it egged me on to understand more. Because I went out very young and I was I mean, you know, when you are growing up and you are in a very protected environment, you don’t even know what’s around you or what you’re missing. So I never knew what I had missed until I went around. And maybe it was a good time for me to then understand or try to read up and try to understand myself as to who I was. And of course, it was just an exciting journey, if you like to try to see what it was like to live in that manner. Very different from anything in the West or very different from even the city that my father had founded, which were all about, you know, grid iron patterns and all the rest of it. And that didn’t have a soul. And here you went into these old towns and it was amazing how it was bustling. There were people all around you. It had life, you know? And all these open sky terraces. I mean, there was so much living done on open sky places. And especially for women who were safe there, who I mean, yeah, it’s quite an amazing way it works. And even for today, when you look at it, when you compare it to the contemporary city or the way it is today, which is again becoming quite lifeless, the way you have segregated places and all the rest of it. And there’s not a 24-hour cycle that anybody’s caring for, whether there’ve been lots of movements. But today most cities are really, in every way, they’re segregated. Which means that part of it is not alive at a certain time. But if you go to the old cities, it’s alive all the time. It’s bustling all the time. And so there’s a lot of value in looking at those cities. Or if you maybe look at medieval cities in Europe, for instance, it’s the same story. And I feel that we need to go back to those roots, all of us, to try to see how we can now build cities which will be suitable for human living rather than for vehicles and for roads and for other things or flyovers. I don’t know what. I mean the city is no longer a city to live in. And unless we do that, then we will not be able to lower the carbon footprint. And this whole craze about multistory buildings is a killing sort of way to go. We cannot afford to carry on doing it. And so we need to be looking at examples which will bring more sanity into urbanism as well as architecture.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:

When Yasmeen looks back on those earlier buildings that made her a star, she doesn’t see them as mistakes. At the time, she says she wasn’t thinking about issues like sustainability and social class.

 

YASMEEN LARI:

You know, as long as you don’t know and you’re oblivious to something, then you can’t really justify, but at least you can overlook. But once you know that things are not too good, that there are issues with how you are working or doing, then I think you have to change. You must. Otherwise, I don’t know whether you can live with yourself.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

I do wonder when because you’re in places as you are today, like Karachi or Lahore or elsewhere, you must pass sometimes the buildings that you designed, that you helped build. How do you feel about it now? Do you feel guilt or regret? And does it inspire and shape you in a different way?

 

YASMEEN LARI:

I don’t know. I think I enjoyed every bit of it at the time, being totally oblivious to many things. And the whole purpose was to create something iconic, something that would be impressive that nobody ever had done before. I think I’ve enjoyed every part what I’ve done for some reason. But I think a time comes in your life when you feel that you know it’s okay what you’ve been doing. But if it’s not getting anywhere, if you don’t feel that it’s really something that you want to carry on, then I think you have to change track. And I was very lucky that I was able to do that. It’s not always possible if you are running a practice and especially if you become well-known, then it’s very difficult to give up. But I think it was a good thing that my husband decided to become a historian. He became a noted historian afterwards. He gave up his own managing directorship of an insurance company, and he decided to sell that company. And then he became a historian and he loved it. And I thought, well, you know, I should be doing the same thing. Why should I be trying to pander to the taste of a few when there’s the possibility of writing books and doing other things. There’s a whole mass of materials we’d been collecting. And I thought, ‘about time I did that’. So I think it’s just as well that I decided to change track. It’s a good thing to do that.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

You know what you mentioned, Yasmeen, about the capacity to change, and almost the privilege to change also takes an incredible amount of, shall we say, bravery, courage to be able to revisit your own work, your own process, your own learning. And I know we continue to learn and to grow. But I think we also have a sense of architecture and design as being at times an incredibly, can we say, ego-driven space. And so and so as you’re speaking, I’m hearing someone who’s incredibly reflective, responsive, constantly thinking and challenging themselves. You advocate for a new approach to architecture called barefoot social architecture. I love the name. You know, it’s that sense of being grounded in the space that buildings and towns and plans emerge. What’s the story behind the name? How did you arrive at barefoot social architecture?

 

YASMEEN LARI:

Well, of course, it all started in 2005 when the earthquake struck Pakistan. And the first time I was engaged in humanitarian work. I’d never done that before in my life. But if you recall at the time, that galvanized the whole nation like never before. And everybody wanted to just go and help out. They didn’t know how. I didn’t know how, but I thought I had to get there. And that’s what I did. And it wasn’t only in Pakistan, but everywhere. I mean, the people came from all around the world to help out. It was the most amazing kind of experience. But what was amazing was that I arrived with no workforce, literally no funding, no transport, literally nothing. And then help started to come in.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Mhmm.

 

YASMEEN LARI:

And help came from me from all over. And I’ve got all these volunteers, young people, young architects, young students of architecture from Pakistan, but also from all around the world actually. So I was never alone. And that’s what I keep on emphasizing to people who don’t know much about humanitarianism is that that is such an amazing field. When you go in there, first of all, it is the most rewarding work that I could have ever done. I mean, there’s just no doubt about it. But also that I was never alone. I always had help. I mean, if I was to start trying to count people who have helped me on that way, I mean, it’s impossible. And then gradually, all kinds of help came – first in material, in kind, and then later on funds. And yeah, it was incredible. So I managed to experiment a lot. I’m a woman, so I had a lot of advantages. I could go into women’s quarters. Many of the workers who had come, the humanitarian workers, were men. They never got a chance to even go see women. So women were really left out. Because if they were foreign women, they wouldn’t like to risk it. If they were Pakistani women, they hesitated. And that showed me what strength women had and how I needed to work with them. And that’s what’s been really amazing for me, that everything that I’ve designed and mostly obviously, I’m conscious of the fact that they need much more help than men do. And for me, the effort is to see through architecture, how do I provide dignity to women?

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Mhmm.

 

YASMEEN LARI:

Because what I think that we’ve lost or we have not somehow remembered that it’s not so much the loss of tangible stuff or property or whatever, but it’s really the loss of being able to live in a dignified manner. So if you’re exposed, if you’re displaced, if you’ve got everything collapsed around you and you’re sitting on a mound with nothing around you, well, that’s the worst possible thing that can happen to you. So that’s why I think what was important is to see that we avoid displacement in all possible cases. And that’s what I think professional architects and engineers got to do, is to design buildings that will be safe. And also there is a matter of, you see, what happens is when you have whole devastation, everything is gone. You start with a clean slate, everything is needed. It can bring about a whole social transformation if you do it right. So that’s what barefoot social architecture is. It’s not about just building. It’s about building people’s lives. And I think it can all be done and I think architecture is the best tool. And that’s why you have to be a good designer to do that. That’s why I keep on pleading, we need good designers in this field. To work for the poor. The rich don’t need the expertise. They can have them any time.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:

One example of how her work goes beyond architecture involves empowering people to find new ways to support themselves financially. After the earthquake in Northern Pakistan, she organized a gathering of women and helped them set up a program to sell bead products.

At first, it just seemed like a good source of income.

 

YASMEEN LARI:

But I think what we found was that once women were empowered through this bead club that would be sold by their husbands or their sons or whatever, everybody decided to have respect for them. And there were reports from the police stations I tried to gather, and we found that there were less beatings of women, for instance. So I think there are these small steps that I think needed to be taken. First of all, if you have grief, and you talked about it earlier, you must have a pastime that will make you engage in something that will get you over whatever you might be grieving about. And so these women had lost so many loved ones and they had nothing to do all day. Nobody had ever bothered to talk to them. There was never any outlet for their grief. And then once they started this program of crafts and beadwork, which they were so proud of, I think it healed them in the process somewhat. So that’s why when there’s a disaster, I say I’m against charity and handouts. That doesn’t work. We have to get people engaged in productive work. They want to build a better life. Yes, they’ve gone through a disaster. They are displaced, but they’re not disabled.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Right.

 

YASMEEN LARI:

They want to do things. They can do things. So why did they treat them as if they were beggars and then they need handouts?

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

You know, over the years as you’ve worked with and trained new architects, what’s the state of of architecture as you see it? You know, you’re known as Pakistan’s first female architect and some places ‘starchitect’. And you’ve carried that moniker around your own career. What does it look like for women entering into the profession now?

 

YASMEEN LARI:

Well, you know, what’s interesting, of course, is that I may have been the first one, but now there are many young women who are in the field now. You’ll be surprised now. Majority of the ones, new ones who enter this profession or study the profession are women. In Pakistan, they’re now in the majority. So it’s not that there’s a dearth of opportunities for women in Pakistan or that they are not able to do it. The only issue is, and I think it’s worldwide, that when women do take up and study through these whole five years of study, two years of whatever they have to do in terms of practical work, still it’s not necessarily that they will be in the field. They may not be allowed to work. So everywhere there’s a large number of women professionals who are today not active.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Mhmm.

 

YASMEEN LARI:

As far as the schools of architecture are concerned, I don’t think the reality has sunk in that the world has now changed. I mean, it seems to me that the same kind of courses that I was taught or the ones that I studied, are the same ones being taught now too. It’s not changed. It’s the same pursuit of becoming a well-known iconic architect who will change the world, in that way. And the realization that majority does not need that kind of an architect. They need a different kind of an architect now. Now, it’s the people who need you. They need your services as designers. At least 90% need our services, but where are the architects who will serve them? And that’s true for most of the world. There are some universities which are now going into that direction, but not enough. And everywhere there are disparities, I mean, I know that many American cities like San Francisco or Los Angeles even maybe, they have homeless people sleeping under the bridges. I mean, I’ve seen people like that in the UK. So the question is: What are we doing? As a profession, what are we doing to deal with these kind of situations? They all need assistance to be able to live a better life. But we’re not paying much attention to those. Everywhere now, there’s a need. Everywhere the profession has to now change. And not only architecture, but also urban design, because everywhere you’ve got urban flooding, you’ve got urban heat islands, you’ve paved everything with concrete. So obviously it’s becoming a very kind of inhuman kind of environment, very hard and harsh. And there’s no need for that. We can change. We can humanize environments. We can bring about a more egalitarian society. We can all work towards having a better life for most of the people. I know everybody wouldn’t get it, but at least the majority should. So yeah, I think it can be done.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Yasmeen, you know, you describe with such pithy alacrity the crisis before us. And I think this summer that’s passed has made that more clear than ever. We are in the midst of the climate catastrophe. And yet even as you’re going through the tragedies, the crises, the challenges, I hear in your voice, incredible hope, not just hope, but like passionate hope. And I guess, a real belief that things can change. What continues to give you that hope Yasmeen? Where does it come from? What’s the wellspring of it?

 

YASMEEN LARI:

Well, I think it’s the community that give me hope because I’ve decided I will bypass all towers of influence and all towers of power. And I’m going directly to my people. And with this flood situation, although we tried to get many people to start building in a sustainable manner, but there seems to be very little interest in the country. So I decided, and the government certainly is not interested, it seems to me, nor is the World Bank and others. So I decided I’ll go straight to the people. The people who we train and who now- I mean, I built up a model from September of last year until about March, early this year, where we saw this… I mean 3000 families were able to carry on this holistic model and they all became self-sufficient. But there wasn’t enough interest for people to do that unfortunately. So I said, fine, we go straight to the people. So all those people who have been now trained, I call them my barefoot entrepreneurs. And now we are going into each village, they are going into each village. And the first thing is that they make them food secure. How to start growing food. Secondly, they say, okay, now you can start building a toilet and then a very inexpensive but a very safe house. And then they can get other things also through their own savings. So it’s my zero donor model, which is working extremely well, and I’m very optimistic. We’ll get a target of one million households being rehabilitated until next year. So it’s a win-win situation where my barefoot entrepreneurs are being paid. And if I tell you that they are earning up to about 80- to 90,000 rupees a month.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Wow.

 

YASMEEN LARI:

And the minimum minimum earnings today is 30,000 rupees a month.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

That’s incredible, Yasmeen. That’s incredible.

 

YASMEEN LARI:

So that gives me hope. And it’s all incremental. They learn how to do it, tomorrow they won’t need me or you or anybody. They do it themselves, thank you very much.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Isn’t that the goal almost Yasmeen? To make yourself superfluous to this process of growth.

 

YASMEEN LARI:

Yes absolutely. There’s a very eminent master of one of the famous colleges in Cambridge, as you might know. I was invited to be there for the visiting professor of sustainable design. So this very fine gentleman who had been with IMF, who I wouldn’t name his name, but he was having a discussion. I was invited to this particular college for lunch. And so he was discussing with me. And then he said, “You know, Yasmeen, we need at least ten of you. We need nine clones of you.” I said, “No, no way.” I said, “No, I want to be redundant after a year.” And he wouldn’t believe me. But I think I will. Maybe it’ll take a year and a half. I don’t know.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Yasmeen, tell me about a recent joy or meanness that came as an unexpected visitor.

 

YASMEEN LARI:

I think the memories that stayed with me are, again as I mentioned, the generosity of the people of my country when I compare those who have everything with those who have nothing and the way they treat their guests. Then you know, there is that, that everyone is treated as if they are special guests who have to be taken care of. And this you can find in every part of my country, whether you are up in the north or in the south. And you will be in any area where they have gone through tragic circumstances, but they will still be there to greet you and to welcome you. So I think there’s something in that that I don’t think many countries probably have and I don’t think many people even realize that Pakistan has this amazing strength within itself.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Yasmeen Lari, it’s been an honour to have you on This Being Human.

 

YASMEEN LARI:

Thank you so much.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER: 

Thank you for listening. We’ll include links in the show notes where you can see Yasmeen Lari’s work and learn more about her incredible career.

 

This Being Human is produced by Antica Productions in partnership with TVO. Our senior producer is Kevin Sexton. Our associate producer is Hailey Choi. Our executive producer is Laura Regehr. Stuart Coxe is the president of Antica Productions.

 

Mixing and sound design by Phil Wilson. Our associate audio editor is Cameron McIver. Original music by Boombox Sound.

 

Shaghayegh Tajvidi is TVO’s Managing Editor of Digital Video and Podcasts. Laurie Few is the executive for digital at TVO.

 

This Being Human is generously supported by the Aga Khan Museum. Through the arts, the Aga Khan Museum sparks wonder, curiosity, and understanding of Muslim cultures and their connection with other cultures.

 

The Museum wishes to thank The Hilary and Galen Weston Foundation for their generous support of This Being Human.