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ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:

Welcome to This Being Human. I’m your host Abdul-Rehman Malik. On this podcast, I talk to extraordinary people from all over the world whose life, ideas and art are shaped by Muslim culture.

SANDRA SAENZ:
Makeup is my medium. So I am an artist. I’m a makeup artist because makeup happens to be my medium. But I tell stories through makeup.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:

What does it mean to be an artist who paints on a living canvas? That’s what I wanted to speak to Sandra Saenz about. As a makeup artist, Sandra has had her work featured in magazines around the world. She is currently a Global Brand Ambassador for KVD Beauty. Sandra stands out. In pictures, she dresses all in black, with a wide-brimmed hat, the contours of her hijab visible underneath. Her work ranges from traditional aesthetics, to bright colours splashed across models’ faces, like masks, or some sort of abstract clown makeup. Sandra made history in her industry, as the first hijabi Mexican woman to secure agency representation in the United States. Of course, being the first comes with challenges. And Sandra is not shy to talk about the barriers she’s faced in her work. She also recently had her first art exhibition, as an artist-in-residence at the Shangri La Museum of Islamic Art, Culture and Design in Honolulu. She spoke to me from her home near Dallas, Texas.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:
I was so excited to see that you were, you were the artist in residence at the Shangri-La Museum.

SANDRA SAENZ:
Oh, thank you. It’s you know what? It was such a blessing in disguise. I didn’t know I needed that residency for my heart, for my art, for showing, for showing people what we can do as Muslims and not just Muslims, but we come from all walks of life like I’m Mexican, you know, so, yeah, I, I always tell people I’m like a unicorn and they’re like, Why are you unicorn? I’m like, Well, have you ever seen a unicorn? They’re like, No. I’m like, Exactly. Have you ever seen a Mexican Muslim? It’s becoming more common now, but we’re still kind of like this mystical, magical creature that sort of exists. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK
It’s sort of, you’re emerging. And, you know, the Shangri-La Museum is such a place. It’s like a place out of time and space. There’s an image from your film 11:11 (Beautiful Patience), which premiered as part of your residency at the Museum of Islamic Art, Culture and Design earlier this year and there’s an image from it that I just can’t shake. The film shows you before the camera, seemingly without makeup, and there’s this paint of many colors falling over you. And initially it’s like you and your body accept it and then you’re, then you’re wiping it away and you’re and you’re, you know, you’re trying to uncover your eyes and you’re, and the colors are the colors are mixing in all kinds of, you know, unusual shades and hues. And then the film switches and you’re looking at the camera and it’s this look which the film describes as anguish, because the word appears there. And then it’s like you scream and you weep and you pray. And I actually had to stop the video at that moment because it took my breath away. What was the anguish that you felt? 

SANDRA SAENZ:
So. Wow, this is so powerful. And thank you for that feedback, because that’s exactly as an artist, what I wanted people to feel something I wanted them to like stop for a second and think, Wait. I felt that. I felt that in my core. It resonated with me somehow. So when it came to anguish, in order to understand a little bit how we got to anguish. I’m a makeup artist and I’ve been a makeup artist for 20 years, and so there was no better representation of me showing what I do, but just using color. And that’s how it started with the it’s just a black canvas. It’s me wearing all black. And there’s a symbolism and there’s a meaning to that, actually. When I, so I’m a convert to Islam. I converted when I was 25. And and I remember, you know, when you when you’re not a Muslim and you discover Islam, it’s like this explosion of color. It’s like, Whoa, it’s so amazing. Like, you just feel like it’s too much. Like you don’t even know where to begin, where to start. You’re so excited. And so the dripping of the color symbolizes this whole new world of color. And it’s also parallel to my journey with makeup. You have to learn makeup. It’s color theory. It’s so that video specifically is parallel with my Islamic journey as well as it is with my artistic journey. And so at the same time, you know, there’s also at least when I became a muslim back then, there were and there were but there weren’t a lot of programs to truly help converts. It almost felt like the auntie that was there when you converted at the mosque would take over and tell you, you can’t wear color, you can’t do this, you can’t do that, and you’re like, uhhhhhh, and then like, it’s the saturation. So somewhere in the video with the colors, you see me suffocating. There’s actually a little piece where you see the paint going inside my nose. That was all real, by the way.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK
Yeah. Absolutely. It’s it’s a very it’s kind of like a bit of a disturbing moment. You’re like, okay, yeah. What’s going on now?

SANDRA SAENZ:
Is she going to choke?

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK
Yeah, absolutely.

SANDRA SAENZ:
Like, is she going to suffocate on that paint? And I truly was. I remember I told my friend, my photographer friend who was helping me film this. I’m like, do not stop. I will be okay. Call 911 if I end up suffocating in this, but I really want to capture this. So the way that you receive Islam as a convert, sometimes it’s incredibly overwhelming. There really wasn’t something, you know, that gave me the proper steps or like there wasn’t anybody saying, hey, take it easy. Islam is simple. It’s people that’s complicated. Right? And so it almost became like you have to wear hijab, you have to get married. And I’m like, wait a second. What? Like, nobody told me all these things, so it became overwhelming. So the explosion of color and everything dripping was almost kind of like how I received Islam. It was a lot of a lot of a lot of a lot. But it was beautiful and it was colorful. So it was almost kind of like a big mess because I was depending on the community to get me all this feedback and everybody was giving me this feedback. There is a video and it’s online, it’s on my YouTube somewhere, of my Shahada.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:
The Shahada is an oath declaring one’s belief in the oneness of God and the acceptance of Muhammad as God’s messenger. Simply put: when you express this creed, you become Muslim.

SANDRA SAENZ:
I took shahada on a Friday and the whole mosque was there, so everybody gave me a hug. So I think it was around for sure. 100 people plus giving me help. So it’s again, it’s that paint is all those colors. They were all from different nationalities, different skin tones. So that’s what that meant. Now, anguish. And I had to.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:
Yeah. And I can feel I can already start to feel a little bit of that anguish as you’re speaking about this, in terms of this kind of this overwhelming experience and how to process that.

SANDRA SAENZ:
Right. So I couldn’t explain anguish without explaining that first part, and anguish comes from a beautiful explosion of color all of a sudden incredibly overwhelming. But then anguish is like the expectation not only from my Muslim community to become what they culturally feel fitting for me, you know, depending on who’s telling me, but also the lack of acceptance from people that are not Muslim. I was working for a very big company, a makeup company, and I was a regional artist for them. And I remember saying, you know, for so this is something that is a little back story. I was really annoyed that people wouldn’t know that I Muslim because I would I would be working and I would say I would see hijabs and be like, Salaam Alaikum And they’re looking at me like, What? It’s like, Oh, look, an American that learned Salaam Alaikum, Right. And then I don’t have the Arabic, you know, like, sound, I guess, to it. You know, so. Or tone or ring to it. And so I would be so annoyed. And I’m like, how can they know that I am Muslim? I’m just going to wear a hijab. I’m just gonna to wear a hijab, that’s it. And I started wearing hijab. So when I told my my company, the company I was working for, my employer, I want to start wearing hijab, they’re like, there’s no way. And I’m like, wait, what? I’m like, What do you mean there’s no way? No, there’s a way. And they’re like, No, no, no, like. And I remember, you know, my my boss at the time, she was Latina, like myself. And I just thought she would understand, you know, it’s a decision that I made. And and she’s like, why are you going back? And I’m like, what do you mean? And she’s like, Why? Why are you? You’re going back in time. Women have liberated themselves for centuries, and now you’re oppressing yourself again. And I’m like, No, no, no, you don’t understand. This is a choice. It’s like, so your husband’s not making you do this? No, I became a Muslim before I met my husband. Like, what are you talking about? Like, my husband converted for me. What do you mean? Almost like, type of thing. I mean, of course, he’s born Muslim, but still, like, you know, he started practicing a little bit more after he met me. But, you know, so no, it was just one of those things where I converted and I, I discovered something so beautiful and I discovered something that truly spoke to my heart. Converting to Islam to me, it was the very first time that I actually made a decision for myself. You know, I didn’t choose to be born Catholic. I didn’t choose to, you know, become a Christian. It was kind of like pressed upon me because my mom remarried somebody that was a Christian and was like, “Well, it’ll be nice if we’re all a Christian family.” And I’m like, “Well, sure, why not?” You know? I didn’t choose to come to America. My mom got married to an American and we ended up moving here. I didn’t choose what high school the district chooses that, you know, I go to I didn’t choose anything. I never had a choice. But Islam was the biggest one of the biggest decisions that I’ve ever made for myself. And I was very proud of that, you know? And so I never understood why people were so pressed about it, why people were so angry about me making a decision that made me happy, you know, instead of accepting it and saying, well, good for you, right? I got, like, the extremes of both sides.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK
That is such a difficult place to be and yet, Sandra, you have, you have found a way of being yourself. And even that film that we were just talking about from anguish, you moved the narrative into this section on Roots and you said grounded in many cultures, in many languages and many traditions. And part of me thinks that in that beautiful crossroads, that intersections of culture, language and tradition, there must have been a moment where you realized that you were going to be an artist, that that, that, that that the artist came out in you. Was there a moment was there a moment in your childhood or growing up that that you recognized that that that that art and in a life of working with color was going to be your was going to be your path?

SANDRA SAENZ:
Yes. And it’s and I love that you’re saying with such a smile and pride. And, you know, I’ve never said this before, but and I want to be super candid. I feel like a lot of kids are very creative. Right? It’s almost kind of like art in my childhood took over just so that I could survive, it was a survival mode for me. Because my dad died from an early age and it was just me and my mom. And so I feel like my escape was art. My escape was creating a reality on paper in sketching, drawing, you know, that didn’t exist, you know, And I think kids do that when they’re playing with GI joes or Legos or Barbies or whatever, right? They do. They create this like, you know, they play family. They do this. For me, it was, I am going to create I’m going to start sketching. I’m an only child, So I grew up by myself. And, you know, my mom had to work. And so I was alone a lot. But I wasn’t alone when I was drawing. I was in my mind, I was in my head. I was creating beautiful things that kept me busy. And then in school I remember, so, you know, I’m Mexican. I have my little hustle, you know, where I used to be really good at drawing. And the very first time that I ever got noticed between my peers in school in elementary was when I started drawing cartoons. Back in my day, I’m 39, you know, we had Cartoon Network and there was this cartoon called Two Stupid Dogs. So I used to draw these little dogs and people were so like, Wow, this is really cool. So I was like the geek person that I was not good at sports, I was not good at anything, but I was good at sketching and drawing. So I would have a line of people that would say, Could you draw this for me? And it’s funny that my best friend not too long ago told me, You know what I remember from you from childhood, you having a line of people in front of your desk saying, Yeah, just get in line so you can get a drawing?

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:
That’s so, that’s so awesome.

SANDRA SAENZ:
And I’m like, What? Are you serious? And she’s like, Yes. But then the hustle was I started charging $0.50 for this drawings, so I could have lunch money. So that was my early commission, you know, from, from my artwork.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK
Sara That’s dope. That’s, that’s, that’s, that’s real.

SANDRA SAENZ:
Well, I mean, you know, I mean, my mom didn’t have time to do lunch here and there, and I wanted some extra chips, and so that’s how I got my side hustle so, but that’s, you know, it was, it was connecting. Connecting with people, we’re humans. I feel that precisely specifically at this very moment, that’s what’s going on in the world. We need to connect. We need to have dialog. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK
You know, makeup artistry is so unique because you’re working with the human body. Right. That the human skin as your as your canvas and you know, that canvas is that static. I’m intrigued to know what it’s like to work with a living canvas. And in some ways, Sandra, what drew you to working with that canvas in the first place?

SANDRA SAENZ:
There’s a short answer, and there’s the long answer. The short answer is, and I always say this, I actually I claim this quote. I suck at many things in life, but makeup I’m really good at. So that’s the short answer. The long answer is, I always was interested in painting and I wanted to become a painter. And, you know, Mexican grandmas are very interesting. And I remember telling my grandma like, Oh, I want to be a painter. And she’s like, Oh, you’re going to be famous when you die. And I’m like, What? I was like seven years old. And I’m like, Oh, that’s traumatizing.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK
That’s home truths from nana.

SANDRA SAENZ:
I mean, so I was just like, Oh, that’s great. Well, let’s look into something else. So and then later on in life, you know, insecurities hit when you’re a teen. And I remember thinking, I just, I don’t know. I feel like, you know, a surgeon would be fun because, you know, when you’re insecure, you want to change things about yourself. And, you know, I was born in 84, so I lived through the 80s and 90s and early 2000, so I remember thinking if I could change people, you know, and change those things about them that they don’t like, they’ll be awesome because I would love to change things about me that I don’t like. And then I thought about, you know, studying medicine, but my mom’s like, You’re more of a creative. I don’t know if I quite see you in med school. And I really think my mom for that because it’s absolutely true. I would have failed miserably and I would have been so angry. So it’s the combination between becoming a painter and being a surgeon, because I change people. I guess I transform people, you know, while at the same time I’m painting. Except it’s not permanent, you know, it can come off. So it’s kind of like a happy medium in between both. And I was really good at it. I started getting hired by my high school peers, you know, to do make up for their prom and all of a sudden friends and things like that. So it just, it became this thing. 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK
Makeup is often referred to and I’m sure you’ve heard this many times, Sandra, is often referred to as the armor or the or the mask. And yet when I hear you talking, I’m hearing someone who isn’t afraid to use the makeup art as a way to bring out vulnerability and complexity and the whole of who we are. And actually, I have to be honest, I’ve never heard someone speak about makeup art in that way or most often heard it spoken of as a mask or a shield, but it feels like it feels like you’re doing something really. You’re approaching this in a kind of a different way.

SANDRA SAENZ:

I tell stories through makeup. Makeup is my medium. So I am an artist. I’m a makeup artist, because makeup happens to be my medium. But I tell stories through makeup, like if I’m working on editorial work and a lot of people don’t know what editorial work means or beauty or, you know, stuff like that, so in editorials we tell stories usually, let’s say if it’s a fashion editorial, it means we’re telling a story where we’re showing the clothes from X, Y, Z designer, but there’s also a place for hair and makeup in there to tell, who is that girl, Who is that story, who is wearing those clothes? And you can tell a lot by their character, by their makeup. Think about it this way. I’m pretty sure somebody in your family, an auntie, your mom, your grandma, your sister, someone, Right. Do you remember something very particular about them, about their makeup? Like in my I mean, for example, my everybody in my family has tattooed eyebrows. That’s their thing. I don’t know why they did that. Was that a good choice? But a lot of them tattooed their eyebrows, some of them their eyeliner, some of them their lips. You remember faces sometimes. Oh, Do you remember the teacher with the red lipstick? Like there’s this little things and aspects of, you know, that represent you’re like or me like the lady with the hat. Like people always refer to me as that hijabi with the hat. That’s why when somebody comes to me and said, of course. So let’s say this is social makeup, somebody says, Hey, I want to hire you to do my makeup for X, Y, Z. Okay. Do you have any reference of what you’d like? Most people will tell you, no, I trust you. But then you still kind of have you have to have some sort of blueprint. Like you kind of need to know what is it that you know? What is it that they like? So some people want to enhance your features and look like themselves. And then some people want to fully change how they look like. And so again, it becomes this dance and it’s like a dance between trying to understand the person. What are they asking from me? What story can I tell? You know, who they want to be that day? You know, that type of stuff.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK
You know, as you’re speaking, I’m reminded of a post on your Instagram page where you have these white and blue crosses painted over your eyes, with bright red lipstick worn into a frown. And you said in the caption to that particular photograph that you did this piece of art after reading an essay on impostor syndrome. And as you’re speaking, I’m thinking this is it, isn’t it? You’re reading something, you’re engaging with the world. And I’m particularly interested, what made you think of that abstract concept and say, I need to turn this. I need to express this through my art. I need to tell this story through my art.

SANDRA SAENZ:
Well, unfortunately, a lot of people don’t read captions. I love that you do, but most people don’t. Most people are very visual, especially now where they just look for three seconds and then scroll. So you see these really bold blue and white crosses, which is meant to look like a clown, right? It was. It was almost like a clown. And imposter syndrome came from I mean, I actually have two thoughts on that. When I first read of it, it meant almost kind of like how one, it almost takes over you, right? Like is this feeling and you can probably help me explain it a little bit better, but it’s like this feeling that you’re never good enough. And that wasn’t quite because, you know, I don’t have imposter syndrome. I don’t think I’ve ever had it. It’s more of the for example, I work a lot online. A lot of my work is online and creating things online and digital art and digital stuff. You know, people don’t know, it’s almost like a clown. You hire a clown, you have him at the birthday party and you really, truly don’t know if that clown is going through stuff, but they take five minutes of their day, or an hour, you know, to go make you happy. It’s performative and so make up in a way, the way that we’re looking at it now in this day and age, it’s very performative. We have lost the art of makeup artistry or we have lost the artistry in makeup artistry. Everything is about numbers. Everything is about engagement. Everything is about likes. We have forgotten about that connection with people and we’re selling them dreams that unfortunately they don’t exist. Makeup is not going to make you feel prettier or better. You know? It really isn’t. It’s going to be that like need or feel that you have to purchase the makeup. And mind you, I’m telling you this and I work for a cosmetic company. So I must know something, right? Yeah. So.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK
Absolutely, you’re you’re the you’re the expert here.

SANDRA SAENZ:
So, I mean, you know, a lot of people, you know, because it’s our job to go and say, this is the best lipstick ever. But is that going to stop your sadness? Is that going to stop your feelings inside or you know what I mean? So there’s a lot to it. And so we have lost the artistry in makeup artistry. And so, yes, you know, makeup is not a necessity. Makeup is a luxury. And a lot of people don’t know this or are people, a lot of people kind of don’t think that way because we’ve been conditioned to feel, especially women who think you need to wear makeup to feel beautiful and look beautiful. There’s something about my makeup. You know, it’s not very noticeable, but I wear a full face of makeup. But I never do my eyebrows because I have to have this element of undone. I don’t want it to be fully glam perfect. I want it to look raw in a way. I will also look very crazy with very bold brows and a hat. So when I don’t want to look like Angry Bird, I want to make sure that there’s like a balance, but the whole thing about imposter syndrome, I’m here. I’m doing my job. I’m performing. But you guys don’t know what’s going behind that. I’m posting and everything looks perfect in my life, but it might not be. Maybe my kid got sick that day. You know, people that have family members in hospitals, they still have to go on with their lives and because they still have to make a living. So it’s not about the imposter syndrome, about me not believing in myself or sabotaging myself, but it’s mainly about how I still have to highly perform and I still have to pay a blind eye in… I have to say this, but in this day and age where inclusivity and diversity became top thing, you know, we’re still not very inclusive and we’re still not very diverse. And we still have to perform like that is actually a thing, especially in makeup artistry.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK
You’re the first Mexican hijabi makeup artist to secure major national representation in the United States, which means you’re working at this kind of top level of your field. And I mean when you secured that Sandra, how did that make you feel, like how did you approach that? I mean, you know, you’re good. We know you’re good. And now there’s this almost this industry recognition, isn’t there, that that you are doing something which is worthy, important and, and eminently marketable.

SANDRA SAENZ:
It’s bittersweet. And it’s bittersweet because I wish I wasn’t the only one. There’s something sad about saying I am the first at doing this. It sounds like something to get praise for, but there’s no blueprint. There’s no paving the way before that, you’ve had to figure it out by yourself on your own with a lot of ups and downs. And so while it was very beautiful and it’s something that I pride myself, it’s almost sad to just stand alone. I need more. I need more people, you know, that our diverse in my industry. You know, I don’t want to I mean, whenever we’re approaching lunch in a production, I don’t want anybody to look at me weird because, oh, she’s the only one that doesn’t eat pork. Okay, well, like, you know, like, like it should be like, now. Like now it’s. I remember back in the day, about at least 15 years ago, if somebody said they were vegan, “You’re what?” You know, type of thing. I’m not vegan. But like, you know, if anybody said they were vegan, it’s like, ugh, now everybody has oat milk. Like everybody can have replacements and gluten free things. And so, you know, that’s the pain of kind of being like the only person. Now, it’s also our responsibility because at the same time in I’ll be very, very open and honest about this, for the longest time I was very I had this pride about I’m happy that at least whoever comes behind me, they’re going to be able to run because I’m taking forever to do this. I walked for a long time so that they could run and but at the same time, it almost started feeling like, am I guiding my fellow hijabi sisters into a slaughterhouse? Because to be honest and this is the first time that I’ve ever truly spoken about this publicly. For the longest time, I thought I was doing a good thing, encouraging people to take upon this path in this industry because it’s fun, but the industry is not there. They said they were there. They said they wanted diverse. They said they wanted hijabs. They said they wanted Muslims. They said they wanted people of all skin tones and genders, and they’re not ready. When you become too much of something, when you become too Arab or when you become too Asian or when you become too Hispanic or when you become too much lamb or too religious, it’s a problem. It hasn’t been a problem for me because I’m this unicorn that they can place in a box, right? You know what I mean?

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK
Absotutely.

SANDRA SAENZ:
You just said it yourself. I was marketable. Because I, they could, it was a taste that they can digest. You know, it was something that they could process because it wasn’t too much of something. So it almost fit in that other box, you know, type of thing. But when injustices and things in the world happen on world, and it’s my duty to stand next to my Muslim brothers and sisters in solidarity for whatever reasons, you know, I become too much. And then now I become censored. Or then now and then. So now I think, wait, was it am I doing the right thing or should I start empowering women or, you know, my Muslim, my fellow Muslim brothers and sisters or just women in general, and men, to just be themselves, instead of following. Maybe don’t follow my path, maybe stand in your truth and be who you want to be in your art, in your work, in your, whatever space that you want to take in. Just be you.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK
Yeah, I mean, I totally resonate with that, with that, with that. Sandra, because, you know, as we come into ourselves, we see the possibilities of, of, of who we are. And I think exemplars like you demonstrate passion, grit, you know, perseverance, as you said in your film Beautiful, Beautiful…

SANDRA SAENZ:
Patience.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK
Patience. And, you know, and considering what you just said, considering these institutional challenges, right, to not only who we are, but our identity, our histories, right, our superpowers, because as I’ve said many times to myself and others, you know, folks like us have a superpower. We have two feet in four places at the same time. We are so malleable and flexible and be and we’re able to be home and present with so many people in so many different places that sometimes it’s dizzying. And I think to myself, in light of everything that you’ve achieved and you’ve said and you shared, where is your work going? Where is your craft going? Which direction is your creativity going in?

SANDRA SAENZ:
So I made a pledge to myself and I’ve been working on a personal journey. Where I make up is my medium, but I think I have a bigger calling. You know, the other day I was speaking to a friend of mine. She’s half Mexican, half Native American, and she said, You know what, Sandra? You have this thing where people listen to you when you speak. You should use that for a bigger good. And I said, Well, you should tell that to my husband, because sometimes he doesn’t listen. [laughs] But, you know, with that being said, you know. It’s almost like, you know what? You’re right. I mean, makeup is my medium and I can tell stories using makeup. The project that I did, you know, with Shangri la made me realize that that’s really, truly the direction that I want to start going to. I’d rather focus on an exhibition so that I’m able to have these conversations. And as something happened to me not too long ago, you know, of course we can’t ignore the fact that there is a war happening right now. And unfortunately, everybody is you know, it’s it’s taken everybody by, you know, this huge sadness and overwhelming feeling. And, you know, I’ve noticed a lot, my personal observation on this, without getting political, has been that a lot of people have been sharing unfortunate videos where we see the death of our Muslim brothers and sisters. And unfortunately, a lot of people cannot digest that. It’s not normal for us to keep looking at that. So I decided to have a different approach. I decided that instead of posting those very traumatic videos, I would put I would post a reel that was about an art installation. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen it before. It’s like this little mechanical arm and it has, like, this liquid that it’s meant to, it’s supposed to use it to survive. So it spills the liquid all over. The liquid looks like blood. So there’s this mechanical arm that is spilling this blood everywhere, but then it’s trying to grab it all over again because it would die if it I mean, allegedly the robot would die if it doesn’t collect all this fluid again so that it can keep functioning. It’s almost like an oil, but it just looks like blood. It’s very mesmerizing to look at, to be honest with you. But then the whole point was that this robot was programed to keep gathering this and then do happy dances in between to entertain the public that was looking at it. So it’s very ironic, right? But then at the same time, or with the years, the mechanical arm stopped working. Hmm. So the whole function of this robot was to spill blood, to collect it, to keep it alive. But it couldn’t catch up because there was so much blood that was spilled. So the arm died. But what the robot didn’t know is that it was working on electricity, not hydraulics. So the whole point of that art installation is this robot was programed to believe something that it wasn’t necessarily true, and its kind of resonates with what is happening right now. We’re not programed as humans to be terrible people and go do this atrocities. But people were able to resonate with that art piece more than it did with looking at real human beings and what they’re going through. And it sparked more conversation. So with that being said, that art piece specifically started more conversation. So I thought, well, maybe that’s what I need to do, start creating more art so we can have these conversations, because unfortunately not everybody can look at their reality and process it. So maybe that’s where my where I’m going and what I want to do. I want to start opening up bigger conversations, uniting people. I don’t know why there’s all these divisions of religion, of of just being different. I don’t understand it. Even within their religion, different sects and different things. And it’s like, why aren’t we just all one? You know?

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK
Sandra, Tell me about a joy or a meanness that recently came to you as an unexpected visitor.

SANDRA SAENZ:
Oh, this is a tough one, but this is beautiful. With the recent events happening, unfortunately, you know, in Palestine, my husband’s Palestinian and my son is half Palestinian, half Mexican. I lost the ability to cry for three days. And that worried me. So that was a very uninvited guest. Because I am an empath. I care. I have a heart. And I just couldn’t understand why I lost, why it became normal. Why all of a sudden I stopped feeling. And I had to pause for a second and dig deep in my heart and realize that it was becoming too much and I had to tune out. Actually, I got sick. And so that fully took me out for, like, a good 3 or 4 days. And then I started feeling again. But I was very lost at words that I stopped feeling because that’s not normal, because part of my everything, part of my manifesto, part of my lifestyle, part of everything is connecting. And I wasn’t able to connect anymore. And so I’m thankful. Yesterday I was crying and my husband’s like, Why are you crying? I’m like, I don’t know. It’s a good thing I haven’t been able to cry, you know, in a few days. So I cry now and I’m not crying because I’m sad. I’m happy that I’m able to have and feel these emotions because that makes me human and that makes me connect with my fellow Muslim brothers and sisters, non-Muslims and sisters, Jewish, non-Jewish, atheist, everybody. I want to be able to connect with them and say, I’m here, I’m present, I hear you, and I’m sorry that we have gotten to this state.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK
Sandra, thank you so much for being on This Being Human.

SANDRA SAENZ:
No, thank you. Thank you for being human and bringing our human experiences to everybody that is willing to listen.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:
This was the last episode of the season. So, that’s a wrap for season 3 of This Being Human. I hope you’ve enjoyed it as much as I have. Here’s the even better news: This Being Human will be back for Season 4 later this spring. Stay tuned!

 

You can find links to Sandra Saenz’s work in the show notes. This Being Human is produced by Antica Productions in partnership with TVO. Our Senior Producer is Kevin Sexton. Our associate producer is Emily Morantz. Our executive producers are Laura Regehr and Stuart Coxe. Mixing and sound design by Phil Wilson. Our associate audio editor is Cameron McIver. Original music by Boombox Sound. Shaghayegh Tajvidi is TVO’s Managing Editor of Digital Video and Podcasts. Laurie Few is the executive for digital at TVO. This Being Human is generously supported by the Aga Khan Museum. Through the arts, the Aga Khan Museum sparks wonder, curiosity, and understanding of Muslim cultures and their connection with other cultures. The Museum wishes to thank The Hilary and Galen Weston Foundation for their generous support of This Being Human.