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Abdul-Rehman Malik (VO): Welcome to This Being Human, I’m your host Abdul-Rehman Malik. On this podcast, I talk to extraordinary people from all over the world, whose life, ideas, and art are shaped by Muslim culture. 

 

Saima Hussain: I wanted to do something not for me, but, like, make a difference, leave some knowledge, do something good for my community, for the Muslim community. Even if a handful of people read it and thought, oh, I didn’t know this. See Muslims and Islam in a positive light. That, for me, was like, my mission accomplished.

 

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Abdul-Rehman Malik (VO): Today, I’m thrilled to introduce Saima Hussain—a writer, editor, and librarian with a deep passion for storytelling and history. Saima’s journey is as diverse and compelling as the stories she tells. Born in Saudi Arabia, raised in Pakistan, and later moving to Canada, her life has taken her across countries and cultures, all of which have shaped her unique perspective. Saima is the author of The Arab World Thought of It: Inventions, Innovations, and Amazing Facts, a children’s book in which she uncovers the brilliant contributions of Arab and Islamic civilizations. She is also the editor of The Muslimah Who Fell to Earth, a remarkable anthology that shares the deeply personal stories of Muslim women from all walks of life. But Saima’s story doesn’t stop there. As a librarian, she’s on the front lines of community engagement, working to make knowledge accessible to all, especially to young people. For her, libraries are more than just buildings—they are spaces of opportunity, equality, and connection, where stories are preserved and shared across generations. In this conversation, we dive into Saima’s love for libraries, her reflections on how storytelling shapes our understanding of history, and her mission to give voice to the underrepresented. We also touch on the challenges and joys of navigating identity in a multicultural world, and the vital role libraries play in bridging communities.

 

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Abdul-Rehman Malik: I want to start with libraries. 

 

Saima Hussain: Okay!

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: I want to start with libraries because I am the quintessential 1980s library kid. I want to tell you that my beloved mother would drop us off at our local public library. We were probably too young to be left alone. But the library was so compelling that she knew we wouldn’t wander anywhere in this pre-cell phone, pre-pager, pre-get in touch at every moment era, myself and then later on, myself and my sisters would go to the library. I was a total library kid and libraries where I really, I think I learned not only the love of reading, but the love of knowledge and the love of books. A love that was started in my home. But there’s something about a library that is irreplaceable. Tell me, Saima, were you also a library kid? 

 

Saima Hussain: Oh my gosh. Can I just tell you, I think we had moved back…So I grew up in Saudi Arabia.

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Okay.

 

Saima Hussain: We moved back to Karachi, Pakistan, and it was only the first couple of weeks there. And my mother said to me, your birthday is coming up. I’m going to give you a present. We’ll go somewhere. You will get a card. And then you can have free books all the time. And then I thought, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, I need to go to this place! I think I was ten years old, nine years old? And then I couldn’t wait for my birthday. I kept saying to her, can we go today? Can we go today? Can we go today? She finally was like, okay, fine, we’ll go before your birthday. So we went to the library. I got a library card. And I could take out four books. And I thought, oh my God, I love this place. Absolutely. That’s how I love my library. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Tell me about this library in Karachi. I’m totally intrigued. 

 

Saima Hussain: Karachi. So it wasn’t a public library. It was a private library. The British Council had a library which they offered membership to. It was free membership, and then you could use it. And there wasn’t really…Now, when I look back, obviously, because it wasn’t a public library, there weren’t any of the programs that we now associate with libraries. There wasn’t, you know, an area for children to play or anything like that. But the idea, especially then in Pakistan, when books were not so available, to have these books for free and so many of them, there was no limit to what I could pick up, what I could read. So that was such a blessing.

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: I love it. Okay, so tell me the books that you were picking up. Do you remember something from that era that intrigued you, fascinated you, excited you? 

 

Saima Hussain: I think this is when I first found out about the Vietnam War. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Oh wow.

 

Saima Hussain: So I was picking up books like, oh, there were these wars or even personalities like Ronald Reagan. Who was he? British monarchy. The fact that they had slaves. So basically, like, I think European, American history was more my focus, local history as well, but more so I was finding out about what happened around the world because I was learning about our own history in school. So. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Fast forward to 2024, and Saima Hussain is a librarian. You are working in libraries. You are imagining and thinking about libraries all the time. I imagine you’re thinking about ways in which libraries remain relevant. Talk to me about that. I think there is a really interesting public conversation going on, not only in Canada, not only here in the United States, but I think all over the world about what does the library mean in an era of, you know, massive digitization and access to knowledge, you know, this brick that we that we that we hold in our hands and put it in our pockets has more information in it than the entire Apollo moon program had on its databases, and we sent human beings to the moon? Like, talk to me about that, Saima, what does the library mean to you now as someone who’s working as a librarian and a curator of knowledge?

 

Saima Hussain: I know as a girl, I was more happy about, oh, I have so many books! But now I realize, the stage I’m at right now, how important libraries are as an equalizer in society. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Oh, talk me through that. 

 

Saima Hussain: So we not just have books. We have books. What’s more important is our books are available to everyone. And that’s always our conversation, that we need to remove all barriers, anything, even people who question, do you have to have a library card to use the library? And we try to make as many services available without the library card. So that even somebody who doesn’t have an address. And unfortunately, in our city, we know that there are more people who don’t have a permanent address, that they should not be barred from using the library or its services. So what I really love about the library now is that it’s not…you know, how it used to be the rich baron used to own knowledge? And it was, you know, in his mansion, this big, beautiful room with, you know, a hand-scripted volumes of knowledge? Now, the library doesn’t do that. The library says, it’s free, take it, it’s for you!

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Do you see yourself reflected in the kids who were your age when you first engaged with libraries and books? 

 

Saima Hussain: I do, 100%. I love it when the kids come in, they get a card, they’re jumping up and down and they say, we can just take the books? The books are ours? And we’re like, yeah, for three weeks, they’re yours! So it’s just, it’s so sweet. But I have…I also see myself in the young teens who come in. I see myself in the young immigrants that come in because I came to Canada as an 18-year-old. And so, for me, the immigrant experience is something I remember. So when people from another country who’ve never experienced the library, for them, it’s a brand new experience. And unfortunately that’s a lot of countries. A public library. And so they come in and they get a card and just listing to them all the things that they can now do with that card? It feels like such a privilege, such a blessing to be able to give them that good news that, you know, you get this, you get this, and they look at me and they go, and it’s free? And I’ll say, yeah, it’s free! So it’s just so, I think it’s a wonderful place to be. You just feel so good every day. You make one person happy and you’re like, I did such a good thing today. And I’m paid to do it!

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: I love that. What brought you to Canada when you were 18 years old? 

 

Saima Hussain: Education. I always, my father had promised me that if I did well in my O-levels and my A-levels that I could go do my degree in, actually, he promised the US. And I got in! I got into a couple of universities, but my mother, being a bit more conservative than my father, said, I can’t let a girl go alone. There’s no way, she’s a teen! I can’t let her go. And so my father said, okay, Saima, I’ve applied for immigration. If that comes through, then I promise you a university in Canada. And so that’s how Saima Hussain at 18 landed at Montreal airport. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: I mean, the fact that your father was so committed to your education, he’s like, we’ll apply for immigration. Well, we’ll go the extra, we’ll go the extra ten miles to make sure that my daughter gets to university over there and really continues her education. Did you come into university thinking about stories and storytelling? Because so much of your work as a storyteller, as an anthologist, as a writer, as a journalist, right, shows this incredible love and passion for stories.

 

Saima Hussain: I think we all have stories, right? And we all do tend to think that our stories, you know, are worth listening to. And they certainly are. And so I remember going my very first day at university to the student newspaper, and I started working there. I volunteered as one of the writers over there. And this is someone brand new from Pakistan. I was still very conscious about my accent. I didn’t know the lingo. I didn’t know the slang. Someone called me “wicked” and I thought, oh my God, they called me wicked—is that a bad thing? Is that a good thing? I had to ask somebody else! And so it just, I mean, for me, it was a brand new world. I had studied English and history, and I learned stories. And then I revisited my own stories because what I had learned about history or literature before coming here. So you get different perspectives. I didn’t know about the stories of the First Nations. I didn’t know the story of Canada. And so that was one more thing that I learned. But I definitely always thought that all of us carry our stories. For me, always even meeting people, new people, new perspectives, you always change your story or revise your story and go, yeah, that person’s right. They have a point. 

 

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Abdul-Rehman Malik: I have a small favor to ask you. If you enjoy this show, there’s a really quick thing you can do to help us make it even better. Just take five minutes to fill out a short survey. This is the Aga Khan museum’s first-ever podcast and a little bit of feedback will help us measure our impact and reach more people with extraordinary stories from some of the most interesting artists, thinkers, and leaders on the kaleidoscope of Muslim experience. To participate, go to agakhanmuseum.org/tbhsurvey. That’s agakhanmusic.org/tbhsurvey.  The link is also in the show notes. Thanks for listening to This Being Human. Now, back to the interview.

 

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Abdul-Rehman Malik: I need to ask you about this great book that you wrote. It was your first book. And I guess after, you know, many experiences and lifetimes in one lifetime of writing in different places, of being editor of this major newspaper in Pakistan, being the editorial team of this major newspaper in Pakistan at an incredibly historic and sensitive time, your first book is not about politics. It’s not about contemporary history, but it’s a book entitled The Arab World Thought of It: Inventions, Innovations and Amazing Facts. And I have to tell you about my experience with this book. 

 

Saima Hussain: Okay. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Because I hadn’t clocked until I was getting ready for our conversation today that it was you. Because I’ve been seeing the book for years and I’ve been seeing it all over the place.

 

Saima Hussain: No way!

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: I’ve seen it. I’ve seen it in the United Kingdom. I talked to a friend of mine who’s a teacher in the Toronto area, and he’s like, yeah, I know that book! We use that book, especially during Islamic Heritage Month. 

 

Saima Hussain: Oh, I love it.

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: This idea that the Arabic speaking world, the broadly Muslim, and Arab civilizations, and Persian civilizations, and civilizations associated with them were these were these sites of incredible invention, innovation, discoveries, science. Tell me what led you to write The Arab World Thought of it: Inventions, Innovations, and Amazing Facts.

 

Saima Hussain: Gonna be honest, you know, sometimes they say good luck falls in your lap? It fell into my LinkedIn messages. I literally, I got a message on my LinkedIn messenger, and it said, hello, this is my name. I’m an editor at Annick Press. We are a publisher for children’s books and we have a series called We Thought of It and we were just looking at your LinkedIn account and we were wondering if you’d like to do the Arab in the series. And I said yes! It literally, it came to me through LinkedIn. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik:  I love it. I love it. Okay. Score one for LinkedIn. One for LinkedIn, in the LinkedIn column. So Annick Press approaches you. They say you want to write this book. How do you go about doing it? And what came to you immediately? Like, why did you say yes so quickly? What sparked you?

 

Saima Hussain:  It was. Honestly, I don’t know how to say this without sounding really, really cliched, but I’ve consciously thought of the fact that I wanted to make a contribution. I wanted to do something not for me, but, like, make a difference, leave some knowledge and do something good for my community, for the Muslim community. Even if it. A few. Even if a handful of people read it and thought, oh, I didn’t know this. See Muslims and Islam in a positive light. That, for me, was like, my mission accomplished. So really, I mean, for me, it was of course seeing my book in print and my name in print would be amazing. But I thought, this is it. This is my moment. I can actually do something. And especially for children, if a child were to read it, come away with a more positive understanding. That would be mission accomplished. And it was great learning for me as well. Researching and writing this book. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: What’s really interesting for me about this book is that it takes some pretty heavy ideas, right? Because the inventions that you’re talking about are not just like, oh, that’s an interesting invention. You’re talking about things that changed the entire course of human history. How did you bring all of those resources to write this kid’s book and to make it as compelling as it is? 

 

Saima Hussain: I have to say, it’s one of the hardest things that I have written. It’s so easy to write for adults because you know the words. You know, you can say whatever. I mean, it’s so much easier to write for adults. But writing for children, you have to make it interesting. It has to be gripping so they don’t lose interest. But it also has to be simple. It has to be, not silly, but it has to be simplified. I sort of had to do like an introduction, like an overview of the Arab world. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Oh yes, that’s right. 

 

Saima Hussain: We’re talking about like the Umayyads and the Abbasids and doing it all within like 300 words. It’s just very concise and jus,t I kept thinking, what, as a child, would I really want to know? What would be interesting to me? What’s the wow factor here? 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: What wowed you as you were researching this book? Was there a particular invention, a particular innovation, a particular amazing fact that kind of made you go, wow. I’m sure there were many.

 

Saima Hussain: There were many, there were many.

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: But I’d love to hear one that stands out for you because there’s a lot, there’s a lot of cool stuff in this book. I mean, there’s, you’re covering a lot of ground. 

 

Saima Hussain: There was a lot. But yeah, I mean, I had asked for a special section, a separate one on women, women inventions in the Arab world. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik:  Oh, that’s awesome. 

 

Saima Hussain: And so women were doing big stuff. Interestingly, the first university, as we know them today, was created, was established by a woman. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Oh, was that a surprise to you when you first learned that?

 

Saima Hussain: Completely. Completely. I did not expect that. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Wow.

 

Saima Hussain: And I double checked and I triple checked to make sure that it wasn’t just like some sort of fable, some sort of rumor. It was, in fact, a woman who had established the first university. Universities as we know them today. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Wow. Yeah. And in fact, it’s it that the three great universities, these kind of, almost university primes, Al-Azhar, Zitouna, and the Qarawiyyin, all established by women?

 

Saima Hussain: Yeah, yeah. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: And you know, I think that’s why this book and books like it are so important, Saima, is that I think they’re often surprising for those of us who come from those cultural backgrounds, right? Because there is a real disconnection with our past. I mean, I often used to worry about it when I was a high school history teacher. Is that, you know, and I was a high school history teacher at the time of 9/11. And you know, I would think a lot about, you know, how do I ensure that my teaching of history, particularly when we got into world history, was open and expansive enough that students would see themselves in it? And would not only see themselves as history being done to them, as victims of history or victors of history, but actually of movers of history? And that’s what I think is so interesting about books like this, and this book in particular, is that the moment, because the names are like, the names that we grew up seeing, right?

 

Saima Hussain: Right? Yeah!

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: There’s Fatima, there’s Ahmed, there’s Mohammad, and there’s Zahara. And we see these names and they make sense to us because they’re names from our families, our own cultures, our own institutions, our own places of worship, our own mosques. And now they’re being associated with the world changing. That’s a powerful experience for a child. 

 

Saima Hussain: 100%. 100%. So for a child to be able to say, oh, it was somebody from my country, from Egypt, who did this, or somebody from, you know, the Arab world who created…even food! So many people came up and said, ooooh, so that’s how hummus came about! Oh, that’s how the first bread. Ooooh. So that was huge for a lot of kids! A lot of kids loved the food section. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: As they rightfully should, because now they know that it’s not just chickpeas and tahini and olive oil, but there’s an entire history of agriculture. Right? Of cultivation, of all those things behind all of this. Well, I want to say thank you for this book because it really belongs in, like, this set of publications that is doing this important work of sort of really liberating history from something that doesn’t belong to quote unquote us. Our kids feel that they’re very much part of history and I think that’s, that, to me, is just vital. 

 

Saima Hussain: And that’s that’s that’s my mission accomplished. I’m so happy. 

 

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Abdul-Rehman Malik: You know, if there’s a book that I think that you as an author, as an anthologist, as an editor have been associated with, it’s this wonderful book entitled The Muslimah Who Fell to Earth. Tell me a little bit about the genesis of this beautiful, beautiful, beautiful work, The Muslimah Who Fell to Earth, this collection of stories. 

 

Saima Hussain: Sure. So actually, I mention it in the introduction. And I tell the story of how I actually, being in this multicultural city, despite, you know, assuming that everyone must know Muslims like me, a coworker actually admitted, she said, you’re actually the first Muslim I’ve spoken to or who I’m friends with. And I said, well, that’s impossible. There are so many women around you. And she said, I’ve never spoken to one who wears a hijab. And I mean, I don’t wear a hijab. So I guess she felt that she was…So that got me thinking that, I mean, it’s not possible to have a big party and invite, you know, all my hijabi friends and then invite my non-Muslim friends and say, here, to talk to each other! So I thought, you know, let me get stories. And there are so many stories. So the idea really came to maybe in a way introduce Muslim women, different types of Muslim women, because there is no one set standard. All women don’t, you know, look the same, wear the same, think the same. There are so many varieties of us that a book was really a good place to start. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: And how did you go about, I guess, asking for these stories? Was it a general call? Did you go out to writers? What were you looking for? Because I know the editor has so much, the editor-anthologist has so much power, Saima. In a way, you’re directing this project. You’re the conductor of stories through this book. 

 

Saima Hussain: Yeah. Now it seems powerful. At that point, I was literally begging. I was desperate! I was reaching out to people I had never met across the country. I was calling people in Halifax. I was. People in Calgary. And just saying, please, please, please. You know, there are some amazing stories which people said, I can only write them after my parents have passed away, or I can only write them when my mother-in-law has passed away. And so it takes a lot of courage for, I think, a lot of people to write those stories. But from day one, I think what I had told my publisher and they completely agreed was that it was going to be women of all backgrounds, Muslim backgrounds. So it was going to be women who identify as queer, women who are on a wheelchair, one woman who’s Black. So just literally every range and definitely every sect within Islam. It couldn’t just be someone like me who’s, you know, mainstream Sunni. And, you know, that’s it, we’ll cover, that will cover the whole range. But somebody who’s Sufi, somebody who Shia, somebody who’s debating whether she still wants to be Muslim. So that is so important. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: It’s such an incredible sort of sweep through the Muslim experience. What surprised you about the stories that you got? Was there a story in particular that now, years later, when you think about the book, that’s the story that you first think about? 

 

Saima Hussain: I just recently re-met her. Zunera Ishaq. She made the front page news. She wears the niqab. And she wanted to go take her oath of citizenship while wearing the niqab. But she wasn’t allowed. And so, I mean, it’s hats off to Zunera, I think, who really fought. And she defeated any stereotype that there was associated with women. You know, that they’re forced to wear the niqab because she said, and I saw, I met her, that she said, my husband kept telling me, take it off. Take it off. Take your oath of citizenship. Don’t create such a big, you know, you don’t have to create a big issue. Just just let’s get it over with. And she was the one who really stood up for herself. And she fought. And she fought till the day when she could take her oath of citizenship with a niqab on. Because she said, that is my religious belief. So. I was really impressed with Zunera. I mean, all the women were impressive. One girl who lost so much family in her journey to come to Canada, to Zunera who fought for her right. And she said, she goes, I came to this country to be an equal and free citizen. Now, why are they telling me I can’t do things a certain way? So.

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: So Saima, how do you navigate the complexities of identity in your work? Clearly you’re holding together in a beautiful volume like this, in a compelling volume like this, so many different strands, so many different stories, so different perspectives that have their own internal tensions. And given, you know, the multicultural reality of cities like Toronto, of broadly of, you know, Canadian society that you and I have certainly grown up in, how does it how does it feel to hold together the experiences of many people straddling a lot of different worlds within the same space? 

 

Saima Hussain: As you said, it’s really a sample. I mean, we have only barely touched the surface of all the identities out there. But it’s a privilege, really. I mean, it’s a privilege just to even think that…how we live in a world in which people can be, you know, three, four different things, three, four different identities at the same time. And it’s not surprising anymore. I mean. Yeah, it’s even hard to…you know? It’s an honor, really. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: As we sort of move to close, Saima, I’m interested about your work now. You know, you’ve had these two incredibly well-regarded and celebrated and amazingly well-reviewed publications. You have this career as a journalist and a writer, which has taken you all over the world. And now you’re working front face in communities, with communities, in these spaces, in these library spaces where you’re on the front lines of the battle for hearts and minds at the library, serving young people and older people in diverse communities. Where do you see your work as headed? What’s what’s inspiring you right now?

 

Saima Hussain: So many things. Sometimes you’re just like, can I just step out of my skin for a few hours to stop thinking, turn my brain off? Because the world around us does affect us even day to day. At the moment, though, to answer your question, I’m working primarily with young people, youth, 13 to 17 age range. And I think it’s such a beautiful age. I’m privileged to be working with this age because they’re smart. They have opinions, strong opinions, and they’re eager. They’re eager to learn. And I love to see them making a space for themselves, but also leaving space for their colleagues, their friends. For them, it’s. I just love to see them interact among themselves as well, because they really, I see them and I think, you know, I’d like Canada really to be like this. I mean, not to be cliched, but the ease with which they, you know, are with each other. There are different backgrounds, there are different ethnicities, there are different races. But the ease with which they accommodate one another is just so heartening. And so right now, I get my inspiration from seeing these young people. They bring that smile. They bring that positivity, which we really need right now. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Yeah, it’s sort of in their DNA, isn’t it? It’s in their cultural DNA. I mean, even, I find, like, words like multiculturalism almost feel like passé now.

 

Saima Hussain: Yeah, yeah, exactly. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: You know, we have a generation that knows the power of interconnection and interconnectedness and the intersections of our identities and the experiences of others. It feels like even putting a label on it sort of undermines the human. Because they, in some ways, that’s the human experience, isn’t it? It’s that, that ease. And thank you, Saima, for reminding us of that, because I think that’s where a lot of hope is, you know, and kind of in difficult moments is the way in which these kids, for whom, like, all of this diversity and stuff is just…they don’t even give it a label. It’s just there.

 

Saima Hussain: Exactly. Exactly. I mean, we, in our generation, we talked about, you know, diversity, multiculturalism. We worked at it, I feel, in a way? We were taught it. But for them, it’s just, that’s the way things are. That’s just what it is. 

 

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Abdul-Rehman Malik: Saima, tell me about a joy or a meanness that came to you recently as an unexpected visitor. 

 

Saima Hussain: Joy or a meanness. A joy. I was in Portugal recently. And that was an absolute joy. I made it a point to visit The Algarve, which is in the south. So after Lisbon, we went to the Algarve. I found out it was actually originally called the al-Gharb, which is the West, and it was the most west that the Muslims had been in Lisbon. So they had been in Spain and so, once again made it a point to visit the fort. Silves was a town which has a fort city. And so, just walking around, there was joy. There was also sadness because this is what a great time this was. What an achievement this was. But also sadness. We just now have ruins to visit. But I just was trying to imagine the people who must have lived here, the people who must have moved here and the centuries they spent. And then they were expelled from there. So what that experience must have been like.

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Saima, I feel like you are one of those individuals who is bringing those forgotten stories alive, whether it’s in writing or whether it’s in introducing young people at a library to histories and books they otherwise would never access if they hadn’t met you. And you’re a conduit for all that. And I think that’s something that certainly deserves to be celebrated. I just wanted to say thank you so much for being on This Being Human. 

 

Saima Hussain: Thank you so much for inviting me. It really has been an honour. 

 

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Abdul-Rehman Malik (VO): You can check out Saima’s books, The Muslimah Who Fell to Earth and The Arab World Thought of It: Inventions, Innovations and Amazing Facts, wherever books are sold—or at your local library. This Being Human is presented by the Aga Khan Museum. Through the arts, the Aga Khan Museum sparks wonder, curiosity, and understanding of Muslim cultures and their connection with other cultures. This Being Human is produced by Antica Productions in partnership with TVO. Our senior producer is Imran Ali Malik. Our associate producer is Emily Morantz. Our executive producers are Laura Regehr and Stuart Coxe. Mixing and sound design by Phil Wilson. Original music by Boombox Sound. Katie O’Connor is TVO’s Managing Editor of Digital Video and Podcasts. Laurie Few is the executive for digital at TVO.