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Abdul-Rehman Malik (VO): Welcome to This Being Human, I’m your host Abdul Rehman Malik. On this podcast I talk to extraordinary people from all over the world, whose life, ideas, and art are shaped by Muslim culture. 

 

Kazem Abdullah: That’s the thing about conducting it, that there’s so much that can actually be expressed through body language, through the gesture, through the eyes, through stopping and singing a phrase and not, like, explaining a phrase with words. So that’s, kind of the really great thing about conducting is that there’s so much interpretation and communication that happens without words. 

 

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Abdul-Rehman Malik (VO): Kazem Abdullah is an internationally acclaimed orchestral conductor known for his innovative programming and dedication to expanding the American operatic universe. Kazem has made a significant impact on the world of classical music, from his role as General Music and Artistic Director for the city of Aachen, Germany, to his pioneering work with contemporary and diverse repertoires. I had the pleasure of witnessing his recent production of “X: The Life and Times of Malcolm X” at the Metropolitan Opera in New York City. It was an incredibly powerful and transformative performance, especially because many of us in the room never thought we would see stories so meaningful to us told on this particular stage, and in this particular artform. There is one scene which is particularly arresting. Seeing Malcolm’s pilgrimage to Mecca brought to life on stage at the Met was deeply moving to say the least. As the ensemble sings the libretto the cast prostrates in prayer accompanied by invocations of God’s name in Arabic. Malcolm confronts both his doubts and his faith and for me it was an unforgettable cultural moment. I wanted to know what it was like to bring such a monumental work alive through music. Kazem joined us from his home in Germany, and we dive into his journey from young clarinetist to celebrated conductor, how he approaches conducting new pieces of music, and his efforts to reach newer and diverse audiences.

 

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Abdul-Rehman Malik: Kazem, your repertoire is vast. And I think about, you know, when you start working on a piece of music that you’ll be conducting, how do you approach it? How do you make it your own?

Kazem Abdullah: Yeah. You know just like in any art form, it’s, yeah, there’s a certain amount of study involved that one just has to do by oneself. So, yeah, you know, like if I were an actor, I need to learn my lines and make decisions about how to learn and execute and deliver those lines. And it’s sort of the same concept as a conductor, except as a conductor, I compare it to being more like a film director. So I have to sort of learn each person’s part sort of individually and then as I learn each part individually throughout the whole piece, throughout the whole opera or symphony, whatever, then I kind of build on each line and learn two lines at a time and how those lines interact and things like this. But, for example, the thing about opera is when you’re learning an opera, you really first have to start with the text. It’s just so you really sort of understand the story, how the story is being outlined and things like this, and then you see how the composer has sort of set those lines of text to music, and then you see how the composer, how he set that line of text with the musical line, how it’s supported then by the orchestral instrument. So it’s really like a building block process of kind of like reading a book almost, but rereading a line like literally like 50 to 100 times. So for instance, if there’s something like 8 bars of music, I’ll study those 8 bars or 16 bars, and then I’ll restudy them again with a different context, as I see how each line relates to the next in the music. So, yeah, you know, I see how the violin relates to the trumpet. I’ll see how the violin relates to the singer that might be singing a line at a moment. So yeah, you’re like, you know, you’re doing a kind of a lot of compare and contrast and as you’re doing that, you just kind of naturally absorb the music mentally and spiritually, I guess, too, in a way. You really start to learn the piece. And then, you know, like when you’ve done that for enough days, you have learned the whole piece basically.

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Kazem I find this, I find that, you know, the way you’re speaking about the music, I’m trying to imagine what it would like to be in your heart and in your head, because you as all musicians do understand music as a language, but you actually like it’s kind of amazing, right? As you’re reading a piece of music, do you actually hear it in your head?

Kazem Abdullah: Yeah, no, I hear it in my head. Yeah, because I’ve been involved with music since I was eight or nine years old. You know, I played piano, I played the clarinet. So yeah, you know, I’m able to like, you know, I’m just able to look at the music and hear how it’s supposed to sound like, and things like this. And so yeah, I mean, that’s just kind of how, how I’ve known it to work for me. I don’t, I can’t speak for other people.

Abdul-Rehman Malik: I wonder if it was always like that. What sparks, you know, your interest, your passion in music?

Kazem Abdullah: So my father’s from Sierra Leone. My mom was born and raised in Indianapolis and they met while they were doing master’s degrees. None of my parents were musicians. They both loved all kinds of music and listen to lots of records and things like this, like Stevie Wonder, Whitney Houston, or Burt Bacharach and things like this. So like honestly, the spark came quite early if I really am thinking about it, because I remember, like, I was really lucky to have had a band director in elementary school, his name was Claude Thomas, and he recognized that I had like, sort of this innate musical ability and was kind of more advanced than the other students. And he just made sure to provide me with music by real composers and the real music. So like, you know, when I was 11 years old, like, you know, he got me the Mozart clarinet concerto, which at that time was like a humongous piece. He got me pieces by Brahms and Debussy. And he just encouraged me to like, try to, go and play them and learn them. So I did like, you know, I went to my public library, checked out recordings, listened to them and was like, oh, okay. Then I just kind of figured it out. And so you know, that kind of was the drive and the curiosity already then, like, you know, having only been doing music for a year, and then I was also lucky that this same music teacher encouraged me to go to the Interlochen Arts Camp, which is in northern Michigan, and so I applied there, I got in, he helped me to get scholarships from people around the area, and I ended up going, and that’s where I met students and people, young people from all over the world. Who are my age that were as good as me and also passionate about music. And that really sort of, I think that set the spark where I thought, you like, you know, like not only seeing students my age, 11 and 12, that were really good, but then also seeing that students that were older in high school that were just so phenomenal and thinking, oh, I want to be like those high schoolers one day. And then like, and that kind of set me on the path. And then that’s kind of, yeah, that’s kind of how it happened. 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Why the clarinet, Kazem?

Kazem Abdullah: You know, that’s a good question. I think I liked just how it looked. I liked how it sounded. I think I saw, like, someone playing the clarinet on TV and I thought, oh, I’d like to actually play that instrument. Yeah, so I mean, yeah, that was really why I just liked how it looked and sounded and it seemed like the right instrument and then I also played other instruments, there was a moment where I played actually like when I was 10, I actually played the flute, clarinet, oboe, and piano.

Abdul-Rehman Malik: That’s amazing.

Kazem Abdullah: So I played those three instruments and then I also had access to a bass clarinet. So I played bass clarinet and then eventually, like, you know, once I got a little bit older, like 11, 12, I realized that now I really need to just focus on the clarinet if I’m going to be any good. And so I focused on clarinet and piano for the rest of my time. 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Kazem, that is a super mature decision to make for a 12 year old. 

Kazem Abdullah: Yeah. 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: I mean that’s amazing.

Kazem Abdullah: Yeah, but I was just kind of fascinated by all the instruments. So there was even like a moment where I played viola and, you know, was playing a string instrument for a while and stuff like this too. And I played the bassoon for a little while too, just to help the school band. So, you know, I was able, like, I was always interested by all the instruments, but I really put my focus in on playing the clarinet mostly and then piano secondarily.

Abdul-Rehman Malik: When did your parents realize that their son was a musical prodigy?

Kazem Abdullah: I don’t think I was considered to be a prodigy per se, and I wouldn’t call myself a prodigy, but I think that they realized probably by the time I was 13 or 14, I think that’s when they realized, oh, this is something that he’s really good at, and that, like, you know, that we should support, especially my mom, yeah, like, you know, she was like, oh, you know, like, it was clear that that’s what I wanted to do, and to try to make sure that I could have as many opportunities as possible to grow and develop. You know, my father also liked music, but he didn’t want me to actually major in it. He was more. No Yeah, he wasn’t that kind of personality.

Abdul-Rehman Malik: There must be a moment Kazem. Where you shift, you shift from your performance as a clarinetist, as a pianist, to conducting. And maybe that’s a slow process, but I’d love to hear like when that begins to happen. Because it feels like two interrelated but very different worlds to the outsider like me who knows very little but but it feels like two very different worlds.

Kazem Abdullah: Yeah. I would say like my first, the idea that like, I might want to conduct one day was probably already set in my head around the age of 13, like, really, by the time I was 13, I mean, I thought, oh, that’s, I, that’s something I would consider also maybe doing, you know, it wasn’t like I, I just said, like, woke up one day. It’s like, I want to be a conductor. It was really always a slow evolution, a slow discovery of music, my abilities as a musician and my ability, like my physical capability is knowing how to galvanize people, which was sort of innate and natural, but then also like, you know, learning the skill sets that one has to master in order to become a conductor. So like, in a way that seed was already planted actually when I was probably like around 12 years old, this orchestra that’s comprised of 11, 12, and 13 year olds. We were playing a movement of Tchaikovsky’s Fifth Symphony, the first movement. And, we would always have to, there was this thing called challenges where you would have to play and practice to keep your seat and to avoid being third chair, you’d have to really understand your, what you’re playing and doing. And so I remember I went to a music library. There in Interlochen, I’m like 12 years old and I had my clarinet part to Tchaikovsky’s Fifth Symphony, I was like, I want to listen to a recording. And so, yeah, so they gave me a CD and this is like 1991. So it’s like, I didn’t personally have a CD or CD players yet. So I remember getting the CD and it was this nice CD with Claudio Botto, Chicago Symphony, and they, like, it was the Tchaikovsky Fifth, and they had the Voyevoda Overture. And I went and listened to it, and I remember the librarian who was there, she did something very smart. That I don’t know if she realized it, but she did something very smart. She was like, well, like, you have your part there, but why don’t you actually check out the score? And I was like, the score? She was like, yeah, the score has everything there. So I was like, sure, I’ll look at the score. So she gave me this little miniature score of Tchaikovsky’s Fifth Symphony. And I remember like, you know, I was listening to the CD and I had the score. And I was probably lucky that the symphony opens up with a clarinet solo. And I think that’s why I was like, oh, I need to hear what a professional orchestra does, because it was like the clarinet solo. So I listened and I probably just knew how to follow the score because like it was clear, oh, this is the clarinets. This is my part. So then it just opened up this whole thing. And it was just like, oh, I’ll like, listen to what the violins are doing. Listen to what the bassoon is doing. Oh, listen to what the flute has the same line that I have just before I played this solo. So it was just like this like thing that, oh, this piece is so much more than just my own part. And so that was kind of like how that seed planted and then to actually learning how to conduct, basically it was like, I was just always interested. So anytime there was a chance to conduct, I would take it. So then basically when I started college I made it my goal to try to get a job in a professional orchestra just so that I kept, you know, growing as a clarinetist and really being a really good clarinetist, which I was until I decided to transition to conducting. And, um, yeah, that was really the best advice just because I think it’s really important and any conductor really has to know the practice of practicing actually, and learning music and mastering and figuring things out and understanding the technical demands that are put upon musicians, because if you haven’t gone through technical adversity or figuring things out as a musician than if you’re working with an orchestra and helping the collective group to be able to learn a piece that like, so like, yeah, so that’s kind of how it’s all connected I guess.

Abdul-Rehman Malik: You weave such a beautiful tapestry of the ways in which musics and the discipline of music and the art of music comes together. The conductor to me, always from a young age, felt almost like a magician and it felt like they were doing something mystical that with a wave of the wand and the hand, you know, musics would rise and fall and people would move. It was this something really magical and mystical about it. And Kazem, there’s no better person than you really to describe for us what it feels like to conduct, what it feels like to be in them in that moment. Like it’s something really otherworldly that’s almost happening.

Kazem Abdullah: It’s definitely like an honor and a privilege to be able to lead musicians and especially musicians that are really some of the best musicians in the world. So that’s really such an honor and a privilege to be able to do that. And with that being said, you know, as a conductor, you’re not actually making the music. You’re kind of guiding and moving things forward and along according to the composer’s directions. Especially when you’re working with a really great professional group, each one of the musicians is, as good as a musician as the conductor, that’s usually there. And each of those musicians may or may not know the score well. You have to kind of, in one way, correct things as they’re happening if you’re hearing wrong notes or the phrases like the way someone executes a phrase of music, a line of music might not quite be the right tone or the right volume or the right approach. Then my job as a conductor is to kind of steer it and correct them. But that’s all the conductor can really do is suggest, and then you have to leave it to the individual to take that, what you said, and then kind of make it their own. And there’s also this act of conducting where, like, you are also kind of, like, you know, you’re listening to what you’re getting, and also sometimes making decisions at the moment. Sometimes people will play something in a way that really inspires you to even think differently. So it’s always this reacting to what you’re hearing and that based on that, you work with the people who are a certain way, or you conduct a certain way and you react, you know, you react to the musicians a certain way. And you know, there’s a lot that happens with like body, that’s the thing about conducting it, that there’s so much that can actually be expressed through body language, through the gesture, through the eyes, through stopping and singing a phrase and not, like, explaining a phrase with words. So that’s kind of the really great thing about conducting is that there’s so much interpretation and communication that happens without words. 

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Abdul-Rehman Malik: You know, going to the orchestra when I was younger and, and in a way also my relationship with things like opera have in some ways been dictated sometimes by my own sense of whether I belong in those spaces, you know, do I as a brown man belong in those spaces. I have to admit, like, you know, going to the opera outside of say Malcolm X or Omar would, I would feel a little bit self conscious perhaps, is this a place where I belong? And one of the things I remember reading that you had said was that you’d spoken about how important it was for you to leave the United States to work in places like Sao Paolo, Brazil and now in Germany. Why is that? Why was that distance from the United States, the place where you found your passion for music and love for music and where you trained initially, what was it about leaving the United States that became so important in your development as an artist?

Kazem Abdullah: Well, it was important for several reasons. In the United States, there are not a plethora of jobs for conductors. Germany, because of its musical traditions, the musical classical heritage that it has just naturally has a slightly stronger infrastructure than the United States as far as the numbers of orchestras and opera houses. And it being kind of like, you know, for lack of a better term, the Mecca of classical music, you know, Bach, Beethoven, Brahms, Wagner, some of the greatest composers of Western classical music are from Germany. And so the culture is different for the appreciation of that music. The second reason, I think that in America and particularly, there is this sense and idea from a lot of musical organizations that only certain kinds of people, certain kinds of European people or European people can or should be the musical leaders of whatever organization. And so there is this aspect that I would not have been able to get the experiences that I had in Germany, in the United States, just because of the way the social structures set up.

Abdul-Rehman Malik: As you’re speaking, I can’t help but think of folks like James Baldwin speaking in the same way almost, right? I wonder if folks like Baldwin were on your heart and mind as you were, as you were embarking on these journeys.

Kazem Abdullah: Yeah, you know, if you think about people from other generations, like James Baldwin, or Langston Hughes, or Katherine Dunham, these African Americans from the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, that also went to Europe. This is the other thing that I felt working in Germany, especially, that I could really just, in a professional sense, I could just be me. And I, there was not this historical baggage that one feels you have to kind of carry sometimes as a Black person in America in a lot of ways still. So I really was like, I got this job like because these mostly European people was like, oh, this is the person we want to lead us because he conducts well, he does music well. And so that was a very empowering thing for me too, cause like there was, I could definitely say that in my twenties, there was a lot of self doubt about, oh, am I really like, can this really happen for me the way I can envision it? And, um, yeah, Germany really, um, gave me wings and confidence and all of these things, just because, it was like, you know, leading this wonderful group of musicians day in and day out, gave wonderful performances and just grew, like, you know, just grew, you know, I just grew as a person there. So like, I’m grateful to have had that opportunity just because it’s made my professional work even stronger.

Abdul-Rehman Malik: I feel Kazem by your example, and in your work, part of your mission feels like it’s meant to invite more people into the space to experience music to see themselves on stage as musicians as conductors. And also as audiences and to say that this music is human and belongs to all of us that feels like a mission for you Kazem and I can’t imagine that that is easy work.

Kazem Abdullah: Yeah, you know, one thing that I’ve realized to see how people, how the audience reacts and how, you know, how people that have never maybe been to an opera will take a chance on opera and say, oh, wow, this is pretty amazing. And like, it’s always my hope, that like, as older works are unearthed and brought to life again, like Malcolm X, or new works are composed like Omar, Rhiannon Giddens, and Michael Ables are composed and produced. That it not only brings new people in, but it encourages institutions to continue to invest in the different stories and the works of the different kinds of people and not just necessary European stories and people all the time because I think that’s important for the art form to continue into this century into the future as we get to 2100, opera is going to need to be a different thing than what it was in 2000 or 1900. That’s obvious. And then the other thing is, is I hope that it will also encourage people that come to the new operas to also maybe want to discover what else there is in the past. So that like, you know, the two feed off of each other. And I think the way a company or an orchestra programs, can do both that it inspires the new and the curiosity and that curiosity can transfer into the past and say, well, what, how did these people back in the 1800s think about these issues or composed music then?

Abdul-Rehman Malik: And audiences matter so much Kazem, I remember that night at the Met, watching that final performance of Malcolm X, the opera and looking around me. And seeing so many people of color, seeing so many people who, who looked visibly Muslim. I was sitting next to two older African American women and there were moments, you know, in the drama. Where I needed to make a human connection with someone because I was sitting by myself. My friends were sitting elsewhere and we both looked across at each other and we caught each other’s eye and, and we knew like, oh, this meant something to us. That was a powerful experience. And it was a powerful experience to walk out into the lobby and see the diversity of human beings all excited and you could hear the conversations of them speaking about what had happened in the act and what was coming up and what they were looking forward to. There’s an electricity and an energy and you’re absolutely right as you’re talking about, like becoming more interested. Absolutely. You know, I went home that night. And I was, you know, on Wikipedia and, and, and looking up Anthony Davis and Thelani Davis, looking up other work and looking up your repertoire, Kazem and saying, okay, what else is Kazem Abdullah worked on and where else does he conduct and you’re so right. You and other artists like yourself, musicians, composers are creating that space. And that’s, that’s really important. That’s really powerful. And it’s also powerful because the themes that you’re dealing with in these productions, they’re, they’re, they’re heavy. These are, these are themes of, of, of justice and of compassion, dealing with hate. It’s about violence. I mean, in the case of Omar, it’s about, it’s about the ugly, devastating reality of chattel slavery and the sense of incredible resilience and, and telling one’s story. You’re balancing the music and what the music represents as well, the two have always gone together for you or is it something that you kind of parse out?

Kazem Abdullah: No, it’s the two have always gone together for me. And these themes that you mentioned that are themes and like Omar and, you know, themes of Malcolm X, these themes exist in operas throughout the history of opera. So like, you know, lots of composers relied on historical figures to write an opera. It was like someone like Verdi that wrote an opera about Attila. Or, you know, Julius Caesar by Handel. You know, there’s lots of operas, even operas by Mozart deal with political themes and subjects, but in a kind of a more let’s say subtle way, but in a very clear way, especially if you were from that time period, you would know right away. So I think that one is always, that’s always a part of it. So even if you’re doing a work like La Notte de Figaro deals with class. And there was this thing called the doigt de seigneur, which is where like a master he could, if he had a servant and he liked his servant, he had the right to have sex with his servant before she got married and these sorts of things. And you know, like it’s not slavery per se, like those people could walk away at any time, but there was definitely these class dichotomies that existed even then that Mozart and Beaumarchais could make this opera. And be very clear about their thoughts about that thing, but also somehow find the humor in those relationships, which is also brilliant.

Abdul-Rehman Malik: I am hearing Baldwin again in your, in your words about the human, about the exploration of our essential. You know, our human experience and, and also at the heart of this all, really love, like, I think one of the things that I found in both Omar the opera and Malcolm X was so much love, right? These figures are contending with love. The people around them are wrestling with love. Yeah, there’s a lot of love in what you’re saying, Kazem.

Kazem Abdullah: Well, no, yeah, even just thinking about Omar and like, if you really think, I mean, you know, I never heard of Omar Ibn Zayed until maybe 2020. And the fact that I didn’t, it’s like, oh, like, you know, Rhiannon Giddens and Michael Ables wrote this beautiful opera so that we will know about him and in this beautiful way and to really think about the story, the trajectory of someone’s life, you know. Coming up in Africa, and then going through the process of being sold and sold and sold here and there and there and there and what that really meant. And to live to be the old age that he did and to be able to write, “tell your story, Omar, you must. Or they will never know and it will fade into dust.” Sorry, I had to think of the music to remember the words.

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Yeah, I remember that refrain and it’s actually arresting as the actor sings that so beautifully because you’re like wow it’s absolutely right, you know telling our stories, writing them down, conveying them in oral traditions. And having people remember them keeps us alive and keeps these lessons alive and keeps our loves and our passions alive.

Kazem Abdullah: Exactly. Yeah. And that’s you know, like, it’s funny, like, even just, yeah, like, you know, I couldn’t remember the words until I said, I was like, I don’t remember the words, but I remember how the words were set to the music and that helped me to remember them. There was recently a thing in the New York Times recently where they were talking about how this experiment at the work with new operas worked and things like this. And there were some people that were saying, well, some of the melodies you can’t remember. And that’s not true. Cause like. I remember so many melodies from Omar, and of course I was working on it, but even people that like aren’t musicians like yourself, you remember that like you remember that refrain. So it does stay with you if the pieces are interpreted with heart and with intention.

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Kazem, let me ask you, how do see your mission and your work at this point in your career?

Kazem Abdullah: I think I see my mission in work is to just simply brings people together in some ways, whether that’s through the concert hall, whether that’s through advocating for musical education, which I think needs more support, especially in the United States, so that we can continue to have a great music culture. Music, I think, is one of the great exports of American culture that has had an impact throughout the world, and I think that that impact, um, If we’re not careful in making sure that we’re educating all students, no matter what class background you have to learn about music and singing and learning an instrument and things like that. So I feel like my mission is just to make sure that the education that I was able to receive in music as I get older and after I’m dead that there will be new people like me that want to continue and carry it on. My goal is to make sure that the human in music always stays present. And it doesn’t get taken over by, um, too much electronic. Um, stuff and AI and things like this, because I think that that’s dangerous, um, in some ways. So I think if, if, if humanity is not careful, we’ll not have the ability to read and write and compose and make music like people. did So that’s what I think is my mission too now I don’t know

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Abdul-Rehman Malik: Kazem, tell me about a joy or a meanness that came to you recently as an unexpected visitor.

Kazem Abdullah: I think an unexpected joy. Well, okay. I mean, this sounds kind of like not the most interesting, but like I was recently at a friend’s house and she has a garden with all these strawberry patches and the strawberries were super ripe and about to go bad and so like I was like oh, let’s make sorbet. And so I did and it was delicious. 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: That is an amazing unexpected joy Kazem. That’s beautiful.

Kazem Abdullah: Yeah. And so I bought an ice cream maker and now I’m constantly thinking about like, what can I make ice cream with now or sorbet with now? So that’s an unexpected joy. I didn’t expect to have a passion for figuring out how to make like, you know, mint ice cream or, like, you know, real mint ice, just all kinds of things, you know, ice cream with sage, with whatever’s available, basil ice cream. So I’ve been like that’s an unexpected joy that happened recently. 

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Abdul-Rehman Malik: Kazem, it’s been a pleasure having you in This Being Human.

Kazem Abdullah: Well, thank you. It’s been a pleasure to be with you, Abdul-Rehman. Thank you.

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Abdul-Rehman Malik (VO): You can learn more about Kazem Abdullah’s work at kazemabdullah.com. This Being Human is presented by the Aga Khan Museum. Through the arts, the Aga Khan Museum sparks wonder, curiosity, and understanding of Muslim cultures and their connection with other cultures. This Being Human is produced by Antica Productions in partnership with TVO. Our senior producer is Imran Ali Malik. Our associate producer is Emily Morantz. Our executive producers are Laura Regehr and Stuart Coxe. Mixing and sound design by Phil Wilson. Original music by Boombox Sound. Katie O’Connor is TVO’s Managing Editor of Digital Video and Podcasts. Laurie Few is the executive for digital at TVO.