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ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER: 

Welcome to This Being Human. I’m your host Abdul-Rehman Malik. On this podcast, I talk to extraordinary people from all over the world whose life, ideas and art are shaped by Muslim culture.

 

HUMAIRA ABID:

I feel as an artist we have a responsibility to educate society, to open up all these difficult conversations and take a step towards resolution and change.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER: 

What do you think about when you think about carving wood? Maybe you picture something big, like a statue or a totem pole. Maybe you picture someone whittling away a piece of driftwood on their porch.

 

Humaira Abid’s work defies any ideas you might have had about wood sculpture. The first time I saw her art, it arrested me. It was like I entered some magical, liminal realm. It’s hyper reality, and incredible detail made me question if the material used was actually wood. I wanted to reach out through my screen and touch it to make sure.

 

Flowers, clothes, shoes… even a barbed wire fence emerges from the blocks of mahogany and oak that Humera Abid carves. Look closer and you see ants, heads attached to chains, and miniature paintings set in stunning wood frames. And it’s not just the craft that strikes you. The pieces are also alive with stories, evoking difficult conversations around issues that don’t get discussed enough – like infertility, the difficult parts of motherhood, the struggles of refugees and a search for home.

 

Humaira Abid was raised in Pakistan and attended the prestigious National College of Arts, where she studied sculpture and miniature painting. And that blend of styles is clear in her work. Over the years, she’s exhibited around the world, appeared in documentaries, and earned multiple awards. She now lives and works in Seattle, Washington.

 

And a quick content warning before we begin: if you’re sensitive to hearing about miscarriages or stories of war, take extra care when listening.

 

The internet gremlins were wreaking a bit of havoc with our recording. This was take three of our intro. It’s also why we’re laughing.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Humaira Abid, welcome to This Being Human. 

 

HUMAIRA ABID:

Thank you.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Humaira, there’s a work in your Searching for Home exhibition that brought back a rush of memories for me. There’s a table on which envelopes are carved out of wood, and you’ve placed them next to the letters that would be inside them. And, you know, I can’t read Urdu well, so I can’t make out what they say. But the scene made me really, really anxious. And it made me anxious because I remembered the letters that would come from Pakistan when I was young and the expectation and the dread that those letters brought for my parents, you know, news from back home. Telephone calls were really expensive and difficult to organize, but these letters contained the news from back home and also requests that would be coming to my parents from their parents and from the family back there. What was on your mind and on your heart as you’re carving those envelopes?

 

HUMAIRA ABID:

It started at the time when I was working on my series, Searching for Home, a concept of home that I wanted to explore. When I moved to the US, it started a conversation in my mind about the concept of home. I remember after a few years, I started feeling like this was my home too. But whenever I visited Pakistan or I was traveling, friends or people here would say, oh, you are going back home. So they started a conversation in my mind – what is the concept of home? Is it a place where you are born or is it a place where you feel you belong? While I was working on the concept of home and developing a show for a museum, I remember I was asked to find my childhood photos for one of their documentaries and while going through my childhood album, in between two photographs, I found two letters from my brother who had passed away when I was very young. My father took him to England for treatment and before passing away he wrote two letters to me. And I did not know I had those letters. It became very emotional to me, like really emotional, as if I had a piece of him with me. I became so emotional that I carved an envelope and I placed it next to his letters and I just posted on social media. That image started a whole thread of conversations with different people. I started getting messages from different people. They started sharing their letters, precious letters, a letter that- it’s been passed on to them through generations as well. As old as 1905 to as early as a few years ago when a daughter who was adopted, found her biological father, and reconnected and wrote a letter to him. They were so I mean, emotional for me, that I decided to do a whole series. So what you’ll see is actually very few of those letters. I actually got many more and I couldn’t add all of them in my installation. But I thought to pick a few, which kind of represent different emotions and feelings, letters which are written across the border from one place to another, people who are divided by boundaries or by distance. So, I mean, that was just the starting point of that series. But that series was a later addition to my Searching for Home show.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Tell me about this exhibition, Searching for Home. It was your first solo exhibition. You talked about how you were looking for a sense of home. How did the individual pieces emerge? There’s this incredible installation of luggage that’s stained with blood. There’s this very arresting image of shoes and bricks. Take us through it, Humaira, because it’s generative and powerful.

 

HUMAIRA ABID:

I intentionally focused on stories of women and children. When I started my research, I realized all the available research is mostly focused on men or the stories shared by men. I think it’s correct when families move from one place to another and they are being asked about their journey or how they have moved, it’s often the male member of the house telling their side of the story. And women do not usually get to share their side of challenges and stories. And I’m anyways interested in women’s issues more and I like to tell the stories which are shared less commonly or they’re uncomfortable to share. Like taboo stereotypes and stories which people a lot of times think might be shameful for them to share. Other thing was, which was important for me, is to create an experience rather than a show. It was really, really important for me. So my works are very strategically placed. For example, if you entered into the space, you are faced by this 30 feet long barbed wire fence which is carved out of mahogany wood, which was another challenge for me in that show and series. So when the audience enter into the space, they are faced by this fence and everything else, the rest of the show, is behind it. So at that time they feel they are outside the fence and they are restricted by that boundary. So they have to walk around that fence to enter into the space to see other works. And once they are inside, they feel they are inside the fence and kind of in an encased space or closed space or restricted space. So this was very important for me to create that experience. So once you enter into the space, then you see other installations, including the one you mentioned with a pile of bricks with leftover items of, let’s say, wounded and killed, referring back to an attack on a city or after, let’s say, a terrorist attack.

 

And then there are other installations. Like I have painted portraits of young girls from refugee camps. So when you see their face or their portrait, they are inspired by actual photographs. And when you see their portrait, you actually see their pain and their journey, what they are going through. But I selected an age between four and 11 for the reason that this is the age where kids feel everything and you can see it from their face, but also they have this strength and determination to get by this time and look forward to a better future. It is also important for me to have an element of hope in my work as well. So not just pain, but an element of hope and positivity. So throughout my series you will see the presence of tiny ants which are fabricated out of white epoxy putty and paint, which kind of brings in an element of, “life must go on.” But as well as they represent journey and a strong female leader and hardworking nature. All of that that I relate to and I feel is really relevant to my concept of migration and refugee crisis.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Oh, I’m so happy you mentioned the ants. It occurred to me as I was looking at your work, the presence of these ants and part of me felt, are these ants? Are they termites? Is Humaira trying to say something about the way wood is shaped and carved? Even the animated bugs that crawl over the homepage of your website. I had to stop. They were so creepy and compelling at the same time. But I love the idea that the presence of this almost like, you know, a nature that human beings can’t control is an element of hope. You know, that nature and the earth find a way sort of all the catastrophe that human beings have brought to the world.

 

HUMAIRA ABID:

Yeah, correct. And you know, some of my work has like bullet holes and like broken and leftover buildings. So having the presence of an ant kind of, you know, again talks about life must go on and there is still life left that we can achieve and restart or remake our home again. And other than that, I think another thing that I focus on in my work is to open up conversations. So, I mean, my work is very lifelike. They are exact replicas of an object. So when I mean, I feel when people look at them, they appreciate the craft, but when there is the presence of ants, it makes them think they’re like, oh my God, why are there ants? And sometimes people, if I’m there, will come and ask me why there are ants and it becomes a starting point of a conversation. And often I hear from galleries and museums that people ask them also and they will have a conversation within themselves or with a group if they come in a group.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

You know, there’s something about your work, Humaira, that is almost magical and it throws you a little bit off balance because there’s so much fine detail in your work. The way you carve, the way you do your craft is just… it’s awesome. You know, the closer I kind of look at the pictures online and I kind of expand them and I go closer and closer and I see ever more, you know, compelling details. The way that you carved the shoes, the flowers, the chains, the suitcases. Each of the items as you get closer, feel… they feel like they’re those items. And then you realize that this is Humaira Abid’s hand and craft that has brought this out of the wood. What’s the process? How do you imagine these objects and and then how do you begin taking what I imagine is incredible slabs of, as you said, mahogany or maple or oak and and then begin to shape them? And these incredibly real looking objects emerge from them. It’s beautiful and it’s powerful and it begs all these questions for me.

 

HUMAIRA ABID:

Oh thank you. And I mean in order to understand my process and why I chose medium, you have to understand that I grew up in Pakistan in a male-dominated society. And in a society which didn’t encourage people, their kids taking art as their major. So I went against the wishes of my family to go into art school. There were all sorts of warnings. And when I went to art school, which is actually a place where you get all that freedom and freedom of choice, I started getting all these warnings from my seniors, from other artists, not to take sculpture as my major. Because living in a, I mean- it’s physically challenging, but living in a society which is Muslim majority, making something three dimensional a lot of people confuse it with idols and idol worshiping. And so there is an additional layer of challenges there. I got so many warnings that I said to myself, I have to see what’s so tough about it, so I took it as a challenge. When I was in the sculpture department, I realized not just there was a lack of facilities, attention, skilled teachers and technicians for us, or introduction to basic techniques, but there were other challenges as well. For example, most of the mediums were considered male-dominated mediums so nobody was really working in them. For example, reductive processes like stone and wood. I was really attracted to wood, but there was no one who could really help me. So there is a rich tradition of woodcarving in Pakistan and also in India, mostly for furniture making. And it’s very male dominated as well. I decided to sit with those traditional carvers and learn techniques from them, which was very challenging for me again. I have a lot of stories of how I got into it and I was able to learn from them where they were so uncomfortable to see a woman around them. But I was so determined I, in a way, made it work. So I learned my basics from traditional carvers and I started pushing the boundaries. That’s how I started working in it. And when I started traveling around the world, I realized it’s not just in South Asia, but around the world this medium is male dominated and there is a lack of a woman’s voice. So I said to myself, I am interested in women’s issues. What better medium than a male-dominated medium to talk about women’s issues. So I thought, okay, this is it. This is my direction. And I was equally interested in miniature painting. Again, historically male-dominated medium, and I thought I could do something new. There were so many people who thought I was crazy. How am I ever going to blend two completely different mediums, you know? Completely different. So I spent the first 15 years of my career trying to learn the techniques, master the techniques so I am at a stage where I am able to do anything I want in these mediums. So that’s around 2015 and ‘16 when I started feeling like I can do anything. And that was my first solo museum show, not a solo in my career, but a museum solo, Searching for Home. And I think around that time in those few years, I was extremely comfortable in the mediums and I felt very comfortable pushing the boundaries. That was all around the same time I got the Arts Innovator Award as well, which I really, really cherish, because working in mediums which are so old and historic that doing something innovative was like something I have spent a lot of years trying to achieve. But finally I was there.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

What was it that drew you to wood in particular? Because like I said it, you work wood as if you’re a magician.

 

HUMAIRA ABID:

Thank you. I was always interested in unusual choices or little bit you can call them rebellious choices.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

I love it. [laughs]

 

HUMAIRA ABID:

So that was my rebellious nature saying I need to do something totally unexpected. But I think the medium of wood or the material of wood really spoke to me. Like, I mean, I understand if someone would take it as a challenge initially, but sticking with it and still so excited about it, I think this is a medium that speaks to me, to be honest. And I think it’s a living material. It has all the colours that human skin has. So often because my work is about objects, I feel objects are like people as well. They tell you stories as well. So I think whenever I’m working and choosing certain woods, often I’m thinking about the colours of human skin as well.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Wow. Oh I love that. Tell me about the moment where your father finally embraced your work.

 

HUMAIRA ABID:

It was there. I mean, I went to art school against the wishes of my family and I’m the youngest. I have two brothers who were like another set of parents. And they were not very happy with me going to art school. One, because when kids are good in studies, their parents and family want them to be either engineers, doctors or a profession which they think they will make a good living out of, or which in a way they consider respectful. And art was not there at that time. So that was the first time I took a stand for myself. And I said, no matter what, I’m going. And I got all these warnings from my brothers, like, don’t wear sleeveless, do not smoke, do not do this. Like, art schools are known for all these rebellious things. And I didn’t care about anything. I’ve actually painted a few times myself holding cigarette in my hand even though I don’t smoke. But as like a stereotype image of a rebellious girl that people have in their mind.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

I saw that picture and I loved it. I’m glad you mentioned it because it was on my mind. I was like, that’s a self-portrait that has a message for the viewer. It’s like, “I’m not living by your rules. I’m doing this on my own terms.”

 

HUMAIRA ABID:

Right. I mean, so this was the kind of person I was even growing up. So when I went to art school, I did really well. That was the place I flourished. For the first time, I started enjoying learning. The very first time. I was not a happy kid growing up among the traditional way of education. I was just not a right fit into that system where you have to kind of memorize everything rather than coming up with a reasoning and understanding it. So when I was in art school, there was nowhere for me to go back. That was it for me. It spoke to me. I did so well. I got scholarship all four years. I graduated with honours. I was called back as a faculty member right away, even though at that time there was a rule in the art school that, you know, graduates will have to have at least two years of experience. But I was called back right away because of which I ended up becoming the youngest assistant professor in the history of art school. I was able to establish myself pretty quickly. In like first few years, I had a solo show. I was showing in other countries as well as in Pakistan, selling, doing projects, teaching. I was doing so well that just after a few years, I remember a day, we were sitting all of our family. And my father said in front of the whole family that he’s so proud of me and it was the right decision. It’s one of the best moments in my life. And it also later on changed the thinking of my family. Both my brothers who were against me going to art school, both their sons went to art school.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

I love it. I love it. The ultimate victory. The ultimate victory, Humaira. You got the next generation on board.

 

HUMAIRA ABID:

Yeah. I mean, so things changed quickly. I think people started seeing art as a valid profession where people can make a good living out of and it has strength and power in a way which a lot of others might not have.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

I’m trying to imagine my head as you were speaking about going to these traditional craftsmen and negotiating and engaging, you know, access to their spaces. Was there a particular relationship that you had with one of these sort of crafts people that had a particularly profound effect on you?

 

HUMAIRA ABID:

I would like to share one example, and I’ve had good relationship with a few, but this one in particular, because it was the beginning of something good for me in that space. So I remember I was working on my thesis. I was a final year student and you know the stress of thesis and everything else, and I was trying to do some new things and experimenting and along with trying to learn from them. So I was in one of the workshops where I used to go to, use their facility as well as learn from them. And I was trying to cut a piece in a way which was untraditional for them also, and kind of made them uncomfortable as well. And I remember the owner of one of the workshops who was a master craftsman, who I was trying to learn from actually, said something really nasty to me, like made a comment, which is kind of very common in male dominated spaces. For a minute my mind just suddenly went blank, like in a way that I couldn’t believe that someone would say that to me. Because I grew up in a family which was comparatively open minded and we had equal rights and opportunities to male members of the house in a way. And I was in art school so again in a place where you get equality. And when he said that to me, I remember I lost the ability to work and I left everything right there. I stood up and I started walking out. And I remember I had tears in my eyes and I’m telling myself, I’m never going to come back to this space ever again. I just will not tolerate that. And while I am walking out for after a minute, walking towards a bus stop, I realized if today I walk out from here, things are never going to change. Not just for me, for anyone else. So I turned back. I went back to his office and I said, “Today, I understand the difference between an educated and uneducated person. And I understand why women are not able to work in situations like that. And I want you to know that it’s because of people, men like you.” And then I walked out and I left. By the time I took a bus and I went back home, I didn’t have a cell phone at that time. He had called my home. He had apologized to my parents and he said, “Just ask her to call me back.” So I did. And he apologized to me and he said, “Come back and you will never have a problem again.” So I did go back because I believe in second opportunities. And I went back and I never had a problem again. He became one of the people from whom I learned the most, some of the very basic stuff. But I’m just giving you this example because it’s not easy to have a relationship with these people because they have such pride. They do not go to art schools or any schools, but they learn from generations of master craftsmen. So they kind of hold on to their information in a way, and especially for women, because they feel a little bit uncomfortable. I was surrounded by all men. But I mean, that experience not just changed him, but also some of his workers who were working in his workshop later on said to me that they felt really bad about that. So, I mean, that changed an environment, not just for me. Later on I took my students there. We did some, you know, kind of demonstrations there, and we never had a problem again.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Mmhmm. I mean in some ways Humaira that helps me understand so much of why the wood, the raw material, you know, out of that raw material emerges such incredibly difficult themes emerge in your work, because it feels like that’s where your heart space is. It’s at that very space where you’re dealing with the experiences of migration, of femininity, of gender, of things like motherhood. I guess in some ways the question comes to me, you know, what is it about your deep and heartfelt concern for these inequalities, oppression, circumstances, social, political, economic and how does that work with wood?

 

HUMAIRA ABID:

So one thing I would like to clarify here is that I know a lot of artists who work in a reductive method would look at a piece of wood or a stone and say, oh, this is what I can carve out of. I actually take a different approach to the material. I usually do my research, come up with an idea. Sometimes I stage things in my studio. For example, if I’m carving an open suitcase with different items inside, I will collect, purchase, stage it in my studio to a composition where I feel comfortable and then I go buy my material accordingly. And when I’m buying my material at that time, I’m thinking, which kind of wood, what kind of color, texture and kind of grains I’m looking for. And then I start working that way from there. I mean, I tell a lot of people that I actually do not listen to my mediums. I want my mediums to listen to me. So I tell them what to do, not the other way around.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

I can see the theme here Humaira. There’s a theme. It’s your gumption. It’s like, I’m going to make the world bend, even though it may be bending in the opposite direction for so many others.

 

HUMAIRA ABID:

I mean, I heard so many times growing up like people telling you what to do, how you should live your life, especially as a woman, that I just can’t take it anymore. I’m like, I’m done. I’m going to live the life that I want to live. I want to focus on me as an artist, as a human, that I’m being a productive member of society. But I am not going to let anyone tell me how I should live my life. And I’m going to do something which is unique and unusual and surprising in a way. And I think all of that I have been able to achieve in these mediums, which otherwise are very traditional, considered as mediums of craft. And a lot of people look at them in an entirely different way. I mean, I have heard from people that after they see my work, they will tell me that I’m never going to look at these objects or medium ever again in the same way. So often because I’m carving objects and things that you’ll see around everyday objects telling stories. So I mean, this is exactly what I wanted to achieve. I’ve always been interested in stories and topics which people find uncomfortable to talk about or not comfortable at all. And I think working in a medium which has an element of surprise as well as there is so much work that goes into it and I believe an artist spend that much time on a piece, audience spend that much more time with it as well. That people start to go beyond the layers of actual piece and then start to get the message and start talking. It makes it easier. I think art has this advantage that it can bring people closer and then start opening up all these layers of messaging behind it and make it easier for them to talk about.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

One of those themes in your work is motherhood. And, you know, in our cultures, particularly South Asian, Pakistani cultures, motherhood is so celebrated and yet also bounded, right? Because there’s things about motherhood that we are not encouraged to speak about and often aren’t spoken about. Things like miscarriages and infertility and marital violence and, you know, the struggle of juggling familial responsibilities with taking care of children in a home. And so much of that unseen-

 

HUMAIRA ABID:

Yeah, and as well as, you know, menstrual cycle and puberty and all these- molestation and rape that are happening and nobody is really talking about them.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Absolutely. And yet you have chosen really to explore motherhood and these sort of issues and experiences of women and mothers so directly in your work. What was it about this particular theme that has moved you? And in some ways, Humaira, what’s been the reaction of people as they’ve come into your installations, your exhibitions, your shows and been confronted by these themes and the way in which you address them so honestly, in such a raw way. How do people walk out of that?

 

HUMAIRA ABID:

So one thing, the reason behind working on these themes, as I said earlier, growing up in a society where people were not talking about them and I realized not talking is not resolving anything. So it’s better to talk about them, which I feel is a step towards resolution and change. So this was my initial reasoning. And also I have been interested in these topics that either people don’t talk about or take advantage of. For example, motherhood is a topic that people think, oh, I mean, this is understood or this is a duty of a woman or she has to become a mother, or when she is a mother, she has to do this. And nobody really appreciates that or celebrate it in that way. And so I felt these are the roles which need to be celebrated. And not many people know what women go through. Like, for example, fertility issues and miscarriages. I went through multiple miscarriages and I have a daughter now who was my fourth pregnancy. And I remember when I was going through it, I was not able to figure out what was wrong, why is it happening. And I was really looking for someone to speak with or share my experience. And at that time I realized not many women were actually open to talk about it. Even some of them I knew have had miscarriages or fertility issues. So I got so frustrated one day I asked one of the friends and I said, “I don’t understand why you or other women who have had this experience would not open up about it.” She said something very interesting. She said, “Women don’t talk about it because often they end up getting the blame.” So they kind of tried to close that chapter and not discuss, which I understand. So I went in totally opposite way. I actually created a whole series around the topic of motherhood and miscarriages. And I remember when my show opened, some of those of my friends that I was trying to talk to came to my show and then started opening up. Suddenly started opening up. And they started sharing their stories. And some of them got very emotional as well.

 

And same thing happened when I was creating pieces which were about menstrual cycle and leaving a stain behind. And I remember one of my artist friends who lives here, born and lives here in US, came with her mother and later on shared her experience that she have had very difficult childhood because her mother never talked to her about it, and once she had her menstrual cycle, it created some kind of tension between them and they were holding on to them for a very long time. She said, when we came to your show, it gave an opportunity for us to talk about it. My mother started opening up, she apologized to her. And then they were able to let go of that tension between them and be able to have a conversation around it.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Mhmm.

 

HUMAIRA ABID:

So again, I feel art has this advantage that through the aesthetics and beauty it can bring people closer in and open up all these difficult conversations. So all these experiences that people share with me, some of which I hear because my show Searching for Home is touring different museums, and when people come sometime they share directly with me. Sometimes I hear from docents and museum staff that they see so many people getting emotional or connecting with works in different ways and then telling them how impactful these works have been. I think this is why I do what I do and this gives me strength. And this gives me the feeling that I’m on the right path. And I’ve had a very difficult and challenging life in these mediums and the topics that I’m presenting. But I feel because of all of these experiences and impact, that if I have a chance to go back in time and do it all over again, I will do it all over again the same way.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Humaira, what something exciting that you’re working on right now? What’s next in terms of your evolution and your innovation in your work?

 

HUMAIRA ABID:

So I made a commitment to myself. My new work should be better than my previous work, and that’s a commitment that I want to continue to pursue in my life. So right now, I just had a few very important shows, a project, and now I’m in a phase where I’m again experimenting and trying to push the boundaries. In the last few years, I have done pieces like barbed wire fence and some other pieces that people say, okay, how are you going to do better than that? Like they are to a level that you cannot think you can beat. And I am telling myself I can do better than that and I am working on that.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Humaira, I have no doubt. I have no doubt that you will continue to produce just absolutely incredible work.

 

HUMAIRA ABID:

Thank you. And yes, my show, Searching for a Home, is touring. It’s going to a museum in California next year, Pacific Asia Museum. I have some other projects. I’m working for a city here. I’m doing a public art project. There are other shows and projects that I’m working on and, I mean, my work takes so long that I need to plan a few years ahead of my deadline. So yes, I am in that phase where I am working for next year and a year after that.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Humaira, tell me about a joy or a meanness that came to you as an unexpected visitor.

 

HUMAIRA ABID:

I’ve had few people who guided me through the process, who held my hand in difficult times and gave me strength. My father was one of the people who was the reason who I am today. A lot of people ask me my work is so based on women issues that, you know, I may have a woman role model, but actually I did not. My father was the strongest person I know of who let me do whatever I wanted. Once he turned around and he became the biggest supporter. And I give him a lot of credit. I was very lucky. I had really good teachers who guided me and supported me. And still I feel very lucky right now that whenever I have a challenge, because I work in challenges all the time, and whenever I ask for help and guidance and support, I get it.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Your work is an honour to your dad, to your parents, to those incredible people that you’ve mentioned, because your work is incredible, Humaira, and it’s been a such an honour for us to have you on This Being Human. Thank you so much.

 

HUMAIRA ABID:

Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure speaking with you and sharing my story.

 

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER: 

Thank you for listening to This Being Human. Check the show notes to see some of the pieces that we talked about today.

 

This Being Human is produced by Antica Productions in partnership with TVO. Our senior producer is Kevin Sexton. Our associate producer is Hailey Choi. Our executive producer is Laura Regehr. Stuart Coxe is the president of Antica Productions. Mixing and sound design by Phil Wilson. Our associate audio editor is Cameron McIver. Original music by Boombox Sound.

 

Shaghayegh Tajvidi is TVO’s Managing Editor of Digital Video and Podcasts. Laurie Few is the executive for digital at TVO.

 

This Being Human is generously supported by the Aga Khan Museum. Through the arts, the Aga Khan Museum sparks wonder, curiosity, and understanding of Muslim cultures and their connection with other cultures.

 

The Museum wishes to thank The Hilary and Galen Weston Foundation for their generous support of This Being Human.