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Abdul-Rehman Malik (VO): Welcome to This Being Human, I’m your host Abdul-Rehman Malik. On this podcast, I talk to extraordinary people from all over the world, whose life, ideas, and art are shaped by Muslim culture. 

 

Emma Clark: The pure sculpture, the pure you, as it were, self, is inside and but it’s either encased in weeds or just being strangled or it’s encased in stone and you just need to chip away and then then there’s a sort of freeing of the true self. And I do really think this is true in the garden. And you have to water. You have to nurture.

 

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Abdul-Rehman Malik (VO): Today, we embark on a journey into the heart of beauty, tranquility, and deep-rooted tradition. Our guest is a visionary in the world of landscape design—Emma Clark. A revered garden designer, author, and Senior Tutor at The King’s Foundation, Emma is known for weaving spiritual and holistic design principles into her garden creations. Her specialty lies in the Islamic garden—a tradition of building spaces that nurture harmony, contemplation, and represents the sacred balance between nature and humanity, by trying to create a garden that, as Emma puts it, is meant to be “a picture of paradise.” From private sanctuaries to public oases, her work graces both the United Kingdom and far corners of the globe, all while emphasizing sustainability, naturalistic planting, and the wisdom of ancient design principles. Whether through her designs at the new Cambridge Mosque or her collaborations on community projects, Emma’s creations aren’tt just gardens; they are soulful landscapes where time slows down, and the spirit is renewed. A passionate educator and lecturer, she shares her insights on Islamic garden symbolism and spirituality with audiences worldwide, from the Shaykh Zayed Mosque in Abu Dhabi to the sacred soils of Konya, Turkey. Her wisdom is boundless, her presence humble, and her work a testament to the sacred dialogue between nature and the human heart itself. So, let us take a moment to pause, to breathe deeply, and listen as Emma Clark invites us into a world where gardens aren’t merely beautiful—but rather are created to be reflections of the divine.

 

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Abdul-Rehman Malik: I actually want to start somewhere: when is the first time you can remember falling in love with a garden? 

 

Emma Clark: Goodness me! Well, that’s an interesting question. Which I don’t think anyone has asked me before because I grew up, partly here in Devon, partly, but in the country until I was 16. We had a lovely garden and we had a lot of water. There were two or three ponds and a kind of canal. And then at the bottom there was a lake and a lot of trees. It was quite damp, but a lot of flowers, a lot of beds. My mother was always gardening and I, you know, I have to say, I thought it was very boring then. And then, you know, quite often, of course, it’s damp and after all, it’s England. It rained. And then my mother would say, oh, but it’s so good for the garden! And I just think, you know, what are you on about? That’s not a very good start, is it? I’m not one of those gardeners who says, you know, I planted my first seed when I was three years old. But anyway, she did give us a little garden at the back of our quite, you know, we were lucky. We had a big garden in Dorset and even at school in those days. I don’t think that I can say that there’s a specific garden. I do think that it was my upbringing as a child, always having a beautiful garden around. And it was somehow, you know, you absorb these things unconsciously. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: You do!

 

Emma Clark: And even now, I mean, I’m looking out the window at this house, which was my parents’. They retired here, near my grandmother’s house. What was my grandmother’s house. I mean, it’s really pretty, but when they moved here, of course, it was just a, it was just a sort of field. You know, as it says on the old maps, it’s called the kennel. So I think it was just kept for dogs and possibly for pigs. Anyway, it was very fertile. And then my mother created this garden. I have to say, I love this garden. And I think everything goes back to your childhood in the end.

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Right.

 

Emma Clark: And then you can see the elements here, which are not, you know, there’s nothing specifically Islamic, but you then realize that what’s truly important about all gardens is universal. You know, my mother loved doing arches and arches, of course, are key to, well, to Islamic art. And that’s the symbolism of that is, it’s very beautiful. Of course, I didn’t know that until later, until I studied under Keith Critchlow at the Royal College of Art in London.

 

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Abdul-Rehman Malik (VO): At the Royal College of Art, Emma found herself captivated by the teachings of Keith Critchlow, a scholar and artist whose lectures on sacred geometry and Islamic art were unlike anything that she’d encountered before. Critchlow’s approach to geometry wasn’t just mathematical; it was deeply symbolic, grounded in the spiritual understanding that every form reflects a universal truth.

 

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Emma Clark: Well, I’ll tell you what it was: he gave life meaning. Because I did history of art at university. Not once did they say, what does this art mean? What does it impact upon you? How does this affect you? They didn’t look at the sort of the symbolism of the shapes and the forms, because we’re surrounded by shapes and forms. This is the physical world we’re in, and everything has a meaning, you know, beyond the visible, there’s the invisible. And, Keith, opened these doors, all these windows. He didn’t give you answers necessarily. But he would, as a friend of mine put it, he would draw back a veil. He drew back the veil. And we live in a veil. You know, in a sense, true reality is veiled by the beauty of the world. As Keith often said, he quoted Plato, “beauty is the splendor of the truth.” So that’s what he did for me. He showed me the beauty of Islamic art and, by the way, introduced me to Islam. I knew nothing about Islam. I don’t think I knew, because, you know, I was at school in the ‘70s. So, Abdul-Rehman, I’d never I’d never met a Muslim! I mean, I was incredibly ignorant, but you know, just through the beauty of Islamic art and of course, the geometry, he made me realize that this is a whole world of meaning. He was an absolutely incredible lecturer. He’d always have two screens and he’d have, you know, old fashioned slides with carousels.

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Right.

 

Emma Clark: Which he could click or he asked someone, I can’t remember. And he never had any notes, so he was up on a sort of platform with these two huge screens. And he’d have a long stick because he wanted to point to something, and then he’d sort of walk up and down and then just say, next slide please. Next slide please. It was incredibly inspiring and very, very powerful. And half the time I didn’t know what he was talking about, maybe more than half the time. He drew, there’d be a circle on the screen and then a dot at the center, which of course is everything. I didn’t know. He said, first there was one and then there was two, and then you draw a line, and then there was sort of silence. And I just thought, what are you talking about? And honestly, it took me the next 20 years really, to understand something about this.

 

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Abdul-Rehman Malik (VO): Emma’s journey into the world of Islamic art and spirituality wasn’t marked by one sudden moment of revelation, but rather a gradual unfolding during her time at the Royal College of Art. Surrounded by incredible mentors like Keith Critchlow and fellow students from across the Muslim world, Emma found herself immersed in deep discussions about art, spirituality, and the meaning of life itself. Through Keith’s guidance, Emma was introduced to Islamic art and the spiritual teachings of Sufism. Keith recommended books by Sufi authors, most notably The Book of Certainty by Dr. Martin Lings. These teachings stirred something deeper in Emma, planting seeds of curiosity about Islam. Her personal quest for meaning came to a turning point.

 

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Emma Clark: When I started reading the Quran, I suppose about half…maybe after about six months. And I was drawn to reading every…I wanted to go through it myself to to extract every mention of Jannat al-firdaws, the Paradise gardens. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Ah, right. 

 

Emma Clark: And I’m grateful, I did it all, I didn’t write it by hand. I used to do it on an old typewriter. Somewhere I’ve got these all typed out. Because then you look in books and they say, I think it’s 132 times. I should know. But, you know, sometimes it’s just a line. And then, of course, Surat al-Rahman, chapter 55 has the longest descriptions of the gardens of Paradise. And then I wrote my M.A. thesis on the symbolism of the Islamic garden and garden carpet. Because before I went to the Royal College, I was at Christie’s, which is the auctioneers, in the textile department. And it was through that actually, through writing catalogs, that I got on to Keith’s course, but I always loved carpets as well as the eastern textiles. So I wrote about them. And then I thought, you know, because of this emphasis in the traditional arts, you really have to practice. And I didn’t know what to practice. I didn’t have any…I wasn’t good at geometry, I wasn’t good at painting. And, you know, anyway, I have to say, a friend of mine said, look, you know, you like me, you love the gardens. Just do a garden design course, and then you can marry these two sides of your life together. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: What a beautiful suggestion. 

 

Emma Clark: Yeah, it was a beautiful day and I’m very grateful to him. He won’t ever listen to this, but. So I did that, and it was like marrying the English side of my life to my Sufi Islam. And that’s, you know, that’s been the determining factor ever since. So Alhamdulillah!

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Tell me about that connection between the spiritual life and gardening. I’m fascinated. 

 

Emma Clark: You have to weed out the obstacles in the soul. And as you’re gardening and you’re weeding and you’re digging, and you realize how many different ways these obstacles, these negative influences can get at you. And we all know this just in our own thoughts and lives. And then you try and garden. And just recently, in the last week, I realized there are all these different plants. Now, some of them are very easy to pull out. But some of them, like bindweed, or dock, or, what was I trying to dig out? Well, the dandelion. Now, I know the dandelion has positive benefits, and people say we must keep them in our lawns. But, you know, sometimes you just have too many. And, you know, I was digging down and down and down. It was so deep rooted and it was very difficult to get out. And I, even now, I don’t think I got it up. But you look at your own soul and some things are so deep rooted. I mean, it’s usually something like, you know, it’s our pride, it’s really the greatest of the sins, isn’t it? And our egos. And, you know, our whole lives are really about sort of managing our egos, shall we say? So the pure sculpture, the pure you, as it were, self, is inside and it’s encased. It’s either encased in weeds or just being strangled or it’s encased in stone and you just need to…Well, he says you chip away and then there’s a sort of freeing of the true self. And I do really think this is true in the garden. And you have to water. You have to nurture. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Yes. So Emma, if gardening represents the spiritual life, tell us about the Islamic garden in particular. What makes a garden Islamic? 

 

Emma Clark: I think the intention, number one, actually. There has to be the right intention. And that right intention, or the intention, is that it is a picture of Paradise, which you are not going to get in other gardens. And I absolutely love the traditional English garden, actually. But the difference between a beautiful English garden, which you can get a huge amount of solace from, as well as uplifting, between that and a garden which is intentionally based upon the Jannat al-firdaws, the gardens of Paradise, which are described in the Quran. It is a big difference because that is intentionally there to remind you of the world to come, inshaAllah. And so there are principles. One of them, of course, the key ingredients are water and shade. Because the Islamic garden was born in the desert. I mean, if you’re Persian, they’ll say it was born in Iran, in Persia, and of course a lot. You know, this word “pairi-daêza,” is, in fact, a Persian word. And they used it for their hunting grounds, which was a walled enclosure. And that idea of, there’s water and shade, of course. I mean, the water has many, many symbolisms attached to it, but, I mean, of course, you have to have water because there’s no life without water. And in the desert, that was the number one. And then, of course, you cannot have shade without water. But the two, really, the supreme elements and that shade, you know, that she can be seen as a shade. This can be seen as mercy for God, just as rain is seen as a mercy from God. It says this throughout the Quran. And then there’s the geometry of the fourfold garden that we see in art. And the four representing everything that’s earthly, like the four seasons before principal winds. The four cardinal directions. Actually, that’s the most important. And then this idea of the walled enclosure. Janna, I think Janna means secret, it means hidden, as well as garden. And so it’s this idea of being separated from the world, from the world outside. In the desert, of course, there would be a sort of separation. So you have this separation and I think that’s very useful today, because if you make an Islamic garden in an urban situation, you want to keep out the traffic, you want to keep out the pollution, as much as possible. So there’s this separation. Scent is very important. 

 

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Abdul-Rehman Malik: I have a small favor to ask you. If you enjoy this show, there’s a really quick thing you can do to help us make it even better. Just take five minutes to fill out a short survey. This is the Aga Khan Museum’s first-ever podcast and a little bit of feedback will help us measure our impact and reach more people with extraordinary stories from some of the most interesting artists, thinkers, and leaders on the kaleidoscope of the Muslim experience. To participate, go to agakhanmuseum.org/tbhsurvey. That’s agakhanmusic.org/tbhsurvey. The link is also in the show notes. Thanks for listening to This Being Human. Now, back to the interview.

 

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Abdul-Rehman Malik: You created the garden in Cambridge and I think the Cambridge garden is such an interesting example because the Cambridge Central Mosque in Cambridge, England, this is kind of, I think, one of the most magnificent examples of a new Muslim place of worship, but also a new form of architecture designed on ecological principles. And this garden that sits at the entrance to the Cambridge Mosque is actually meant to be a place of transition almost, but also a place of community and gathering. When you were approached to design this space in the Cambridge garden, what’s that process look like? 

 

Emma Clark: Well, it’s interesting. And you put all of that very beautifully because it is a transition between this extremely busy road and the mosque itself. And there’s a bit undercover, actually, because it goes sort of road and there’s a bus stop there, which we tried very hard to move. It’s quite small, this garden, it’s only I think it’s 20 meters going, as it were, parallel to the road and parallel to the entrance to the mosque and then about ten meters deep. So we wanted to get as much that was possible, as it were, the principles. And we have to make it very practical. There are a lot of people, you know, come through the gates, particularly on a Friday, on the Juma prayer. And water is always difficult in this country because we have rather too much of it. And, so we weren’t going to have any rills. You know, this idea of moving water is very important, which I didn’t touch upon. And this is what you get so much in the Alhambra and the Generalife, you get all these different types of water. So you have still water, which is reflecting and, you know, that has a symbolism in itself. It’s reflecting the trees around or the sky, whatever. But it’s a still picture. But then, of course, it’s also a reminder that this so-called reality that we live in is not forever. It’s not fixed. It’s temporal. And the water reminds you of that because, you know, you drop a leaf in the water or you just move it with your finger and that picture immediately dissolves, and then, you know, the running water, and this is…so I was talking about water being a symbol of the soul, so running water is a sort of reflection of the soul’s preoccupations, if you like. These agitations. I mean, all these things contribute towards the design process because you want to have the places where you can contemplate. And this is quite difficult when lots of people are there and it’s a limited space. But we’ve created small fourfold gardens. And in each one, there’s an area where there are benches and that you can sit and it’s nice, actually, as you were talking about, the nice secluded area. As far as possible, it’s reasonably secluded because there are people always moving through. So there’s always this balance between the ideal and the practicality. Every single site is different. And then some people say, oh, the fourfold garden again, that means, you know, you’re going to do that again? As if it’s the same thing. It’s never the same. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Never. 

 

Emma Clark: And also, geometry is never the same. Wherever you are, it’s different. And the plants are different. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: That’s such a beautiful observation and such a beautiful reminder, because I think often in the critique of things sacred, there is this critique of repetition. But the way you’ve described it, it’s not repetition. It’s principles which then meet the realities. Why is it restorative, Emma, why do you feel that immersing yourself in nature or the garden is restorative? What is happening in us because we do that?

 

Emma Clark: First of all, I think, you know, nature, unlike humankind, nature is not fallen. I mean, in the Abrahamic sense, you know, we are, I mean, I don’t want to get into theology, but, you know, humans have a fallen element within us, whereas nature is, you know, we have to overcome it. We have to overcome our egos or transform our egos, change that energy into something positive. Nature is always positive. I mean, I don’t want to get into nature’s, you know, what is it, something is red in tooth and claw? of course. But I mean, there’s a whole, there’s a balance there. There’s a balance. And I think this is extremely important. Anyway, I think we go…you know, it’s something like 85% at least people in the UK live in cities. So it’s not surprising we’ve forgotten how important green is in nature. And when you do go into it, you’re sort of an outsider because you then have to go back to your flat in the city, wherever you are.

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Yes. That’s right. Yeah. 

 

Emma Clark: But I mean, there is a piece which is given by the tree, you know, green is a very soothing color. And in fact, there’s one writer who said, imagine if you woke up one day and all of nature was no longer green, but it was either yellow or red or blue, even. It would be so jarring. It’s the perfection. It’s this… Martin Lings calls green…He talks about the colors of the Quranic illumination. And yellow or gold is symbolic of the spirit of God. And blue, of course, is the celestial color. And green is a mixture of these two. And he says, blue is mercy is known as the color of compassion and mercy. So the gold of the sun, when it casts its light onto this merciful blue, it becomes green. And he says, this is like mercy manifested. So I think this is something we’re not necessarily aware of. And you don’t think of it, but it’s as if we’re enveloped in God’s mercy by this green of the trees and the plants and the leaves, and it is incredibly, you can’t but help but experience this sort of calm of some kind or, it’s soothing. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: There is in so many of our large urban environments, there’s an absence of green space, which has, of course, that impact on the climate and the very living environment of those cities. And then when you add this element, right, of not being able to see those, those colors in a living way. I love this idea of the monks of the cloisters, that you remove yourself from the work of learning and words and knowledge, and you and you literally lay your eyes and you rest your eyes this way, I just, that’s such a powerful idea, right? Of resting your eyes and your soul through this thing that has been intentionally planted to do so. I think that’s really moving. It’s moving. 

 

Emma Clark: Yes. You know, I was reading, I think it was Hildegard of Bingen. And she talked about “Viriditas,” this greenery, this green energy. Or green because “Viriditas” comes from the green in Latin. And it was sort of an answer to your question because we all sort of bathed in it. This is why nature is so hugely important. And actually it’s interesting, you know, this idea of, as you were saying, when we were talking about the monks resting their eyes, of course, the modern sense is, you know, we’re supposed to do ten, ten, ten, isn’t it? Ten minutes on a computer, ten seconds, and we have to rest our eyes. And it’s not just on something green. It has to be on a living green. You know, people have these imitation lawns. They’re made of plastic or something.

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Yes.That’s true!

 

Emma Clark: It’s just not the same. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: No. 

 

Emma Clark: It can probably help, but it’s not the same. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: What advice do you have for the amateur gardeners, for those who are trying to create little pieces of Paradise on their windowsills or in their backyard, what would you advise those who are seeking to capture some of those beautiful aspirations and intentions that you have described? 

 

Emma Clark: Well, so Bismillah Rahman Rahim, you know, you consecrate, you pray for guidance, and you go for what you love and you keep it simple. I mean, I think a danger is, in a small garden, I was assessing some students not that long ago and, I think the danger is, at the beginning, that you want to put everything in one rather small plot at the back of your terraced house, maybe. And it’s really better not to put everything in, just to keep it very, very simple. You can’t really have a fountain in it unless you have a lot of money, because fountains always go wrong. I mean, I, it is wonderful to have water in your garden, but you could have it as a birdbath. That’s what I have, you have it as a birdbath and you keep washing it out and the birds come and they love it. It’s a wonderful thing. They really do. I’m not very good on advice. I just feel you must do what you love. You know, you don’t really want other people coming along and saying, look, that plant isn’t…I mean, you can say that plant’s not going to survive there, but you don’t want someone telling you what to plant, you know, directing your taste, shall we say. 

 

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Abdul-Rehman Malik: Emma, tell me about a joy or a meanness that came to you recently as an unexpected visitor.

 

Emma Clark: An unexpected joy….Well I can’t think of an unexpected joy, recently. I mean one of the joys down here, but I can’t say it’s unexpected, is I love swimming in the ocean. Because it’s near the Atlantic Ocean and it’s cold and I, the cold refreshes you in a way that the warm Mediterranean does not. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: That’s beautiful.

 

Emma Clark: It’s a great joy. 

 

Abdul-Rehman Malik: Emma, I want to say thank you for joining us on This Being Human. This has been a really beautiful conversation. 

 

Emma Clark: You’re welcome. You’re very welcome. It was a very nice conversation. 

 

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Abdul-Rehman Malik (VO): You can learn more about Emma Clark’s work at emma-clark.com, or buying a copy of her book, The Art of the Islamic Garden. 

 

This Being Human is presented by the Aga Khan Museum. Through the arts, the Aga Khan Museum sparks wonder, curiosity, and understanding of Muslim cultures and their connection with other cultures. 

 

This Being Human is produced by Antica Productions in partnership with TVO. Our senior producer is Imran Ali Malik. Our associate producer is Emily Morantz. Our executive producers are Laura Regehr and Stuart Coxe.

 

Mixing and sound design by Phil Wilson. Original music by Boombox Sound. Katie O’Connor is TVO’s Managing Editor of Digital Video and Podcasts. Laurie Few is the executive for digital at TVO.

 

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