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ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:

Welcome to This Being Human…I’m your host Abdul Rehman-Malik. On this podcast from the Aga Khan Museum, I talk to extraordinary people from all over the world whose life, ideas and art are shaped by Muslim culture.

NADIR NAHDI:

There’s a new generation that has a very unique perspective to how they see themselves as young Muslims in the modern world.

TANYA MUNEERA WILLIAMS:

I am this wide-eyed girl. I’m like, I want it all, I want to experience it all.

GINELLA MASSA:

Everyone has a story. Sometimes you just have to find out what it is.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:

Like the poem that inspires this podcast, The Guest House, by Sufi poet Jallaludin Rumi, we’re talking to people who seek meaning and joy in work and life…regardless of what the day brings. Today, comedian Ali Hassan.

ALI HASSAN: 

Part of my role as a comedian, not just to entertain, has also been to, if not attack issues of Islamophobia or discrimination head on, at the very least, simply by being on stage and being a relaxed, fun loving guy, disarm people.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER: 

Ali Hassan has the kind of CV that would take days, and a few therapists, to unpack. He’s a standup comedian, having performed around the world on stages with people like Russell Peters. He has roles in beloved movies and TV shows like Goon, Run the Burbs and Odd Squad. He hosts the CBC Radio show Laugh Out Loud and the literature competition CanadaReads. He’s also done a couple of one-man shows. The first, Muslim, Interrupted, was about how he came to think of himself as what he calls a cultural Muslim. That’s now the main thrust of his upcoming memoir, which will be released in September. That book is called, Is There Bacon In Heaven? It might seem like a funny, even ridiculous question for a Muslim to ask at first. But the more I considered it, I realized it had some pretty far reaching theological and personal implications. Now, for those who might be wondering, bacon, the pork kind at least, is forbidden to eat for most Muslims.  It can be a struggle for many, but Ali’s personal struggle really kept him up at night.

ALI HASSAN:

You know, I liken it to mangos. Like if you meet somebody who’s never had mangos, it’s kind of like mind blowing. You never tried a mango? You never had that joy that, you know, I would, I would be that kid. I’d be that bacon-eating kid with meal. “You’ve never had bacon? What do you have on, like, Sunday morning? What do you have with eggs?” “Uh… Toast?” No, but the…The whole thing was. As a young kid who didn’t understand Islam and only, you’re just getting told you’re a Muslim, so you don’t. That’s the explanation. I’m like, okay, but Tonyafa, our Nigerian neighbor, eats bacon, Maneesh and Madhuri, who are also brown, Hindu, they bacon. Talib is half Muslim. His mother’s from Kentucky. They have bacon sometimes. There’s all this like – it’s like really infiltrating other brown people are having it but…. And when they have it, you know, I’m not having this because of some, you know, commitment that we have to God. And yet when all my friends eat it, they act like it’s a gift directly from God. So, there’s this is a weird divide here. And so, the question was and nobody liked hearing this. You know, I jumped ahead a few steps, and I was like, “Okay, so let’s say I don’t eat bacon for my entire life. I make that sacrifice. And it does seem like a sacrifice. And I don’t do it for my whole life. Then when I die, will there be bacon in heaven?” That’s why the book is named that, because this was the type of questions I asked, and people were not happy.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

It’s a fantastic question, Ali.

ALI HASSAN:

Because I’m like, but once we’re in heaven, we’re free. We did the thing. We didn’t eat the bacon. Can’t we have it then in heaven? Isn’t that like what should be awaiting us? And like, adults were like, “Is this kid for real right now? What kind of thought is that? Like, what kind of kafir thought is this kid having?” But it’s later. I’m dead! It’s now the afterlife. I don’t know. It didn’t just sit well with anybody because no adult Muslim when I was a kid, that generation of adults would have never even thought about that. It’s not only haram, it’s also disgusting. It’s pork. It’s the grossest thing. I’m like, “But you don’t see the joy on my friends’ faces.”

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

They don’t.

ALI HASSAN: 

Yeah.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

You know, Ali, this is a real challenge, right? Because we don’t eat pork. But bacon also had this kind of elusive… It was the elusive kind of culinary holy grail. Right? How do we get close to it without having it? And when my son was young, you know, he would see other people eating ham or bacon or pork, we’d go for brunch, of course, we lived in London. That’s what you do on Sunday – London, England – You go for a lovely brunch in the East End. And, and so what we started telling our son was, “Abdi, the pig is a sacred animal. It’s the one that we don’t slaughter. It’s the one that we don’t eat. It’s the one that got the pass. It’s allowed to roam. It exists. It’s super cute.” He used to watch Peppa Pig.

ALI HASSAN: 

Oh man!

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

I’m like, “It’s all good, man. We just don’t eat it, you know?” And he was like… So, he grew up with that sense of, like. He was like, oh, okay. So, pork is okay. But then, Ali, I discovered beef bacon, which is like…turkey bacon got nothing on beef bacon. We found high quality beef bacon, and now it’s a regular part of our diet. I have friends who aren’t Muslim who have come over and they’re like, are you sure this is beef bacon? And not…bacon made from pork? So, I feel like I’ve caught something of the deliciousness of bacon without having to go over to the dark side.

ALI HASSAN: 

I’m very proud of you. And I am writing down beef bacon from Turks right now as we speak into my phone.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

I’ll send you the link to this specific farm that produces them. It is super delicious.

ALI HASSAN:

Okay. Thank you, Turkey.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER:

Ali’s book is, of course, about a lot more than bacon. In a way, it’s about his struggle to really understand who he is and what his heritage means. Early in the book, he recalls being asked about his Muslimness by his daughter and not knowing how to respond.

ALI HASSAN: 

You fear it, but you love them for it, right? I would almost have felt now in retrospect, in the moment, I wasn’t feeling this, but in retrospect, it’s like I’m happy you were curious about your identity, about our identity. I never got a chance to…You know, while I struggled with my own relationship with my faith and my identity, I never got a chance to really impart that to my children, that struggle. The book is based on a show I did called Muslim Interrupted and Muslim Interrupted in the spirit of Girl Interrupted was just that, you know, I was a Muslim, then I struggled up against Islam, then I was like, “No, I don’t think I’m a Muslim anymore. I’m just a human being, I’m a humanist.” And then 9/11 happened. I was like, Oh, guess what? I’m a Muslim whether I want to be or not. May as well lean into it and discover it and, you know. And then, back and forth, back and forth. And then I understood that where I’m most comfortable is as a cultural Muslim. What that means to me is that a lot of my material on stage was informed by me being a Muslim. A lot of my performance in my mind was good PR for people who possibly have negative views towards Muslims, especially in a comedy club you never know who you’re going to get. Now, when I’ve been touring as Ali Hassan “Muslim interrupted,” it’s a different ballgame. They are coming to see me, they know what they’re gonna get. But sometimes in a comedy show, sometimes you have like two brown people back-to-back. And I’m quite certain I’ve been in comedy clubs where people are like, “Man, are you serious? Another brown person? Are like brown people taking over comedy now? Is this — wasn’t that last guy a Muslim too?” Part of my role as a comedian, not just to entertain, has also been to if not attack issues of Islamophobia or discrimination head on, at the very least, simply by being on stage and being a relaxed, fun loving guy, disarmed people. Like but this is early on. I was like, if people go home and say, I saw this Muslim Pakistani dude tonight. He mentioned that he was Muslim. He mentioned that he was Pakistani. Pretty cool guy he seemed like so, now you have that.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

At least you have that.

ALI HASSAN: 

At least you have that. And it seems like so little. I’m not winning a Nobel Prize for any of that work, but it seems so little but at the same time…I’ve always thought about this – If you were fed, let’s say you were a white person, you were fed as a young person by your Egyptian buddy’s mom. Your Egyptian buddy’s mom would feed you Egyptian soup after you guys would play together or would feed you any variety of like stews or, you know, kebab, this kind of stuff. That lasts a long time, that goes a long way in preventing you from being discriminatory against Egyptians. You had the inside track with that family. You were fed by an Egyptian mom. And ten years later, somebody might be like, I don’t know, this guy’s some kind of Egyptian loser. Immediately you go, “Hey, I knew Egyptians. Relax. They’re good people.” You know what I mean? These are my collection of thoughts on the whole subject. And I feel like just being me, mentioning I’m me, not just, you know – I made a point to mention that I’m Muslim and I’m Pakistani and sometimes I had a joke wrapped up in there. I always felt like it disarms them a little bit. So anyway, this is all to talk about me being a cultural Muslim, my work, my food also – I went well out of my way to make dishes that celebrated – So after the attack on Afghanistan, I was a caterer, and I was making Afghani naan pizza. That’s not really a thing. But I would buy-

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

That sounds like a unique invention.

ALI HASSAN: 

Yeah, that was at the time it was. Somebody might write in to you and say, Excuse me, we’ve been doing that for a decade here, and I would make sure I would say Afghani naan pizza. Why? Because Afghans, Afghanistan was being bombed mercilessly and, you know, unwarrantedly…That’s not a word, but we’ll take some liberties here.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

I think it’s a great word.

ALI HASSAN: 

Yeah, unjustifiably and mercilessly. And there was no good press for Afghanistan, but I was like, hey, I’m catering a meal for these 45 people and one of my appetizers will be an Afghani naan pizza.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

I love it.

ALI HASSAN: 

And this is something I you know, I made it way out of my way to make food from Muslim countries and make sure I mentioned the name of the country always. This is a Syrian you know, the pie that I made, this is an Indonesian curry that I made always. You know, it’s the same way… I have a much smaller reach, of course, but it’s the same way words matter when, you know, you’re documenting, let’s say, as a journalist about an attack. But you used the word clash instead.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

Mm hmm.

ALI HASSAN: 

Those words matter. They matter both ways. When it’s actually an attack and you call it a clash, now you’re like, Oh, both sides are warring with each other, but in fact, it was unjustified attack by one group against another. And my father was an English teacher, words have always mattered. So, from that perspective, I was like, words matter. So, I will say that this is an Afghani naan pizza because words matter and that’s the tiniest little thing, but it’s something positive about Afghanistan in a time when nothing positive about Afghanistan is being reported.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

Ali, I have to say, you’re kind of a jack of all trades. You do standup.

ALI HASSAN:

Master of none!

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

You have a podcast. You do stand up. You have a podcast. You’re an actor. You host TV and radio shows. You’ve written a book. You were a caterer. You know, I thought I had a crazy, incoherent CV, but I’m going to take my topi off to you because it’s wild, right? It’s like a journey into the possibilities of what one person could do. How do you make sense of this CV?

ALI HASSAN: 

How do I make sense of it? It’s two things. It’s one, a guy who got bored very easily. Number two, very late bloomer. I was well into my thirties until I discovered this idea of doing work that I loved. And I was really worried. My parents were really worried, you know, 31, 32-year-old guy, still not really achieving anything, not making any money, badly in debt. So, I think part of it is like once I discovered things I love, I was like, yeah, this is great. Like, you know, I haven’t pressed the snooze button on my phone in quite some time and that was like 8 to 12 times, you know that, there’s – my friend Graham Chittenden has this joke about like the snooze button goes off the first time you touch it, I don’t need to shower. But the alarm goes off again. I could probably get away with no breakfast this morning. Snooze. You know what? I don’t need to brush my teeth. I’ll eat an apple later in the day. Snooze. Like, it’s just that whole thing, I mean, I connect with that so much from my twenties. I just. I didn’t want to face life. I had nothing that I enjoyed. So, I think part of it is like this idea of making up for lost time now that I found work that I enjoy. And the other thing is, it’s a comment on Canadian entertainment and the number of things you need to do to actually make a living salary. You have to throw crap at the wall and see what sticks. And then cooking, you know, leads to comedy in the sense that I started standup comedy because – I had no desire to be a comedian. I started doing standup because I wanted a show on the Food Network. I wanted that more than I wanted anything. And I mean, I’m talking about a very pathetic, desperate, you know, myopic goal. Like, if the phone would ring, I’d be like, “uh, Food Network?? Oh, Mom, sorry. I’m expecting a call.” It was so pathetic. But it was really I had never been focused on anything the way I had been focused on that. And my wife says to me sometimes, Isn’t it amazing how with this overarching focus you had on one goal, the life you’ve created, even though that one goal was never realized? I’m like, yeah it was pretty crazy, you know? So, I took all these other things that came to me in the meantime, like I liked comedy and I was like, I’m going to keep doing this. I really enjoy this for what it is. I enjoy it inherently. And then comedy led to somebody seeing me on stage and being like, “Oh, I wonder if I should cast this guy in my film.” So, Kevin Tierney, The late Kevin Tierney, who I loved so much, may he rest in peace. He was casting for this movie, French Immersion. And he asks Bill Brownstein, who’s the arts and culture writer for the Montreal Gazette. He goes, I’m looking for somebody, preferably South Asian, who could play a chef in my next movie who’s maybe got some comedic sensibilities. And Bill goes, “I’ll do you two better. Absolutely South-Asian, 100% a comedian and 100% a chef.” He’s like, “I got to meet the guy.” And that put me into the world of acting and I – sitting in that, you know, greenroom, you know, mic’d up, make up on, all that. And I was like, “I dreamt about this.”

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

Yeah.

ALI HASSAN: 

Did I manifest it? I don’t know. But I’ll tell you, man, there was a lot of fantasizing and daydreaming, and I just couldn’t believe it. But it was like, you know, food led to comedy in a way, which was supposed to lead back to food. Because I started doing comedy because I wanted to increase my confidence on stage and, you know, build my persona. And one day when I have that studio audience, when I have my food show, I will have had some, like, you know, practice on these open mics. And it just went in another direction. And even broadcasting. I had forgotten all about this, but I was at Champlain College on the south shore of Montreal. I used to be in this deejay booth once a week, twice a week, hosting my own, you know, college radio show. It went nowhere beyond the borders of the college, but it was like that’s like your open mic right there,? That is an open mic. You’re trying things and it’s the band ring. It’s this room of people and you’re saying something in the mic and you’re like, Well, that didn’t work. Nobody, nobody raised their head from their pool game to look at what I, to listen to what I just said. And so, and then I left Champlain College. I went to Dawson College, a different college. Then in Dawson there was another radio station. And you’re just in this booth and you don’t know if anybody’s listening to you. You have no idea. You’re just like, “Well, next up, this is a song, a beautiful poetic song that’ll probably, you know, raise the hairs on the back of your neck. Here is Slayer with South of Heaven,” you know. And then I’d play like this heavy metal that I was really into and then rap. And then once in a while somebody would pop their head in and go, “I wanted to know who this deejay was because this is insane. You just played a band called Suicidal Tendencies and now you’re playing Public Enemy.” I’m like, “Man, that’s who I am. I’m crazy like that.” But I realized much later that in a way that I was practicing, I was rehearsing, because people are like, what training did you go to journalism school? Did you go to broadcasting? Did you have– like I did none of that. I did none of that. Embarrassingly, I feel sheepish about it because how many people are in those programs and would love to be in the roles that I’m in? And there’s like, that’s interesting because you do sound very natural and comfortable on the microphone. And it occurred to me years later, I wonder if it was in those basement underground studios where nobody was around and I was just like free to rehearse, and practice.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER: 

There’s this stereotype in show biz about how Canadians have to move to the United States to make it. People like Mike Myers, Jim Carrey, Norm MacDonald…there’s a long list who follow that tradition. Ali has managed to make it work here.

ALI HASSAN:

I never went to the U.S. It was a thought. It was part of a plan. In 2011, I was the lead comedy panelist, for reasons unknown. I was the lead comedy panelist on a show called George Stroumbouloulopoulos Tonight. So, George Stroumboulopoulos, huge Canadian figure in the broadcasting world. He had his show called The Strombo Show on CBC. It’s called The Hour, actually, it was called The Hour. And he would do long form interviews with the Brad Pitts, the Romeo Dallaires, you know, heads of state, heads of industry, producers, directors, actors. It was fantastic. Long form interviewing was the best. For whatever reason, they shrunk his show to a half hour. And of that half hour, they took 10 minutes and they allotted it to a comedy panel. And I was the lead comedy panelist, so I always felt bad for George about that. I’m like, this is certainly not where he would want to be based on his skill set that I’ve been watching for almost a decade. But it launched my career in Canada. It launched something for me. Hundreds of thousands of people watching me every night. It was five days a week and I was on that panel. Not only was it the career being launched with – you might appreciate this having lived in Canada. It wasn’t only a big deal for George Stroumboulopolous fans, but I got this whole new fan base of people who were tuning into Coronation Street, which was right after Strombo. But Coronation Street viewers, they tune in early. God forbid they miss a second of Corrie. So, they sit, you know, the tea and the dessert is set on the table. They’re ready for Corrie. So, they make sure they turn on the TV early. And so then I was being stopped in the street from people. One time we’re going to this German bakery, which is frequented by older people. And my wife and I had just had this conversation about me on the road and my fans. Do you ever worry about groupies? And I’m like, Do you ever worry about me having groupies? She goes, No, I trust you. And we just had this conversation. We walk into this German bakery and an old gentleman with his cane looks at me, points his cane at me, and goes, “I know you from the TV.” The TV. And my wife goes, “I’ll leave you with your fans.” And she walked in so smug, like she realized in that moment, this guy is never going to have a groupie. It was so perfectly timed. But yeah, all these like sort of Coronation Street older viewers. And that has turned out to be my fan base because of the CBC in general. You know, I tour with like some younger comics and when we tour together, they’re like, why are all these older people here? And I’m like, “Right here, buddy, right here. This is my fan base. This is who I’ve built as a CBC host.” You know, I have younger fans, but people above 50, they’re the ones with disposable income and interest in the arts and the ability to take their money and invest it in the arts, you know, come and see a $45 show.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

There’s a particular flavor to fame in Canada, isn’t there? To be Canadian famous is different to being an American famous or British famous, isn’t it?

ALI HASSAN: 

It really is. Just to wrap up on the question you asked me. The reason I never went to the U.S. and my wife and I had had this discussion many times. I’m like, I’m wondering maybe I should go to L.A., you know, I just got these few roles immediately. You know, there was French Immersion, that Kevin Tierney film, and then there was a role on this movie, Breakaway in this role on this movie Goon. And then I’m on this “George Stroumboulopoulos show.” I’m like, Things are really happening. This is crazy. And maybe I should go to the U.S. And there was a couple of comedians in the green room of the “George Stroumboulopoulos show.” Who told me, no, you don’t go to the U.S.. And I was like, well, you know. I don’t know. We’ll see what happens. I know my wife wouldn’t want to come along. She wants to raise the family here. And then this friend of mine, James Cunningham, says to me, “Listen to me. You don’t go to the U.S. You are in the CBC hamster wheel. And once you hop out, there’s no guarantee you can hop back in. It’s not that easy. You’re in the wheel right now and you do not get off the spinning CBC hamster wheel. I was like, okay, whatever, dude. But man, he could not have been more right. And another friend of mine, Darryl Purvis, told me when he said I was a CBC golden boy, late nineties, everything CBC, all these different shows. They would ask me to host, they would ask me to do comedy, they would ask me to…he goes, I left for two years to San Diego with my ex-wife. She had this house that we were give- while her friends tour the world. She was like, this is amazing. We get to go live in San Diego. He goes, I split up with her. I come back two years later. Not one person at CBC remembered me. They had all, you know, Oh, I’m not in radio anymore. I’m on television. I’m sorry. I’m not there anymore, I’m on this network. And he was like, “and it was all gone.” And he goes, “I’m telling you, I was the golden boy.” And James is right. I stepped out of the hamster wheel and you never- and they were both right. Credit to both of them. The career I’ve been able to have in the CBC has been pretty high profile within the CBC. And it’s all because of that one chance and probably also all because I never left.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER: 

Ali mentioned the movie Goon. It’s a modern cult classic in Canada – a hockey movie from 2011 starring Jay Baruchel and Sean William Scott. Being an old hockey fan myself, I had to know more.

ALI HASSAN: 

Goon was unbelievable. Goon was gosh, I had done this, you know, in the summer. I had just filmed French Immersion. And then I come to Toronto and I’m on this movie Breakaway and then Goon. And I really thought I was going to be an actor. And I thought for sure, I’m going to California. There’s no doubt about this. Didn’t get in another movie again for ten years, by the way, just another comment on Canadian celebrity. So, I again auditioned for this role. Jay Baruchel told me, he goes, “Once we saw your audition, we’re like, We got the guy, we got the guy, and we stopped watching other auditions.” It’s very, very flattering. I improvised in that audition, and one of my, you know, big feathers in my cap is they took the thing I improvised in the audition and they added it to the movie.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

I love it.

ALI HASSAN: 

And what I improvise is something that I’m going to share with you, which you will enjoy particularly. There’s a line where I’m generous and I go,

[Movie clip]

“Everybody, donair on the house tonight! Pardon me, donair sauce on the house everybody. Don’t get excited. Donair sauce. Water down the donair sauce.”

Like, so there’s a shamelessness there, obviously. Like, it’s like a fake generosity, but also, it’s that thing that so many desis have gone through. Because in our shamelessness, we’re like, “Oh, you’ve invited me. Thank you. I’m also bringing my mother and my cousins in town with his wife, and they’re coming.” And all of a sudden, you have to water down the daal. You have to stretch. You have to thin things out. You have to stretch things. You have to add potatoes.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

Because everyone’s got to be fed and it’s going to happen by hook or by crook.

ALI HASSAN: 

Absolutely. So, in the spirit of my relatives, who would always have more sort of add-ons, you know, extra, extra techees would show up. I just did that line, you know, that was just part of my youth. Water down the donair sauce. And they’re like, “That’s great. What is that all about?” And so, I explained it.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

I think it’s important to pause here for a moment and just celebrate the word that you just used there.

ALI HASSAN:

Techees?

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

Techee. Techee is a very particular and peculiar word to our shared culture, isn’t it, Ali?

ALI HASSAN: 

It is. It is. It is.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

And it refers to luggage.

ALI HASSAN: 

Yeah, yeah, it does.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Can you explain the etymology of the term techee to refer to luggage?

ALI HASSAN: 

I don’t know the etymology specifically. I just know that when our friends, when we invited somebody and they brought an extra add on, “Hey, guys, this is Salman.” And it became a pejorative term, which I don’t think it has to be. But you’re referring to a human being as an extra suitcase. I mean, it is pejorative, probably in nature. But I just remember…so, we’d go out, you know, we’d have some good times. And when it came time to pay the bill, the techee was gone. Disappeared. Not contributing to the bill. And so from that, it became even more pejorative. It’s like, “Hey man –

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

That is, that is hilarious. I have never heard that used in that way. So, Techee is like the luggage that you bring with you, but it’s also like the appendage, right?

ALI HASSAN: 

Exactly!

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

It’s that thing at the side. So, may I share with you my understanding of the etymology of the word?

ALI HASSAN: 

Of course.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

It comes from the English term attaché case,

ALI HASSAN: 

Oh, I love it.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

You know, the attaché case.

ALI HASSAN: 

Of course. Attaché! Ohh

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

So that’s where it comes from. And-

ALI HASSAN: 

Of course it does.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

It’s so interesting that such a classical term attaché case is turned in like Punjabi to techee case. It’s classic. Final film note. And then we’ll bring this all together.

ALI HASSAN: 

Sure.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Ali, were you ever asked to play a terrorist?

ALI HASSAN: 

This is an interesting thing, you know. Ahmed Ahmed is a comedian out of L.A., has this joke. Like-

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

I love Ahmed Ahmed, he’s fantastic.

ALI HASSAN: 

Ahmed is like, “They asked me to play terrorist number four. And I’m like, What? I will never do that. I will never disrespect.” It was, there’s no way. And then they go, it pays $13,000. And he’s like, “Where do I scream into the camera?” Right? Immediately. So, I was expecting to have that at some level. There are definitely some roles that I’m not proud of and I wouldn’t do them again. At the time, you’re trying to make a name for yourself. You’re trying to do certain things that, you know, you’re like, If I do this, then maybe I’ll be able to do that. But I never had terrorist. Well, that’s not true. There was a show on CBS, a TV series called Blood and Treasure. And I was like the financial funder of terrorism. But terrorism through art, the show is called “Blood and Terror.” So, I, you know, I was…this is very funny. I was terrorism adjacent, Abdul-Rehman. I was terrorism adjacent. Terrorist adjacent. I was funding terrorists. I mean, the roles I got were always they had like a little bit of me. There was some character. There wasn’t like just a guy in the background. And I, it’s weird to say I feel lucky, but at the same time, I know in my first five years of trying to establish myself as an actor, I probably would have wound up taking the role. You see this money. And I was – you know how heavily indebted I was. You know, sometimes money has to come before principles. I feel very blessed to be in a position now, not only would I not do it, my agent, who’s a Jewish fella, who is one of the greatest people I’ve ever met, will say they’re looking for this guy. Angry cab driver. I’m going to just tell them no. He tells me he’s telling them no. He sends it to me. I read it. I go, I agree with you, Ryan. Thank you. Right? So, to have a guy in my corner to understand those sensibilities, to know that as a Muslim, he doesn’t want to play this. I’m his agent. I don’t want him to play this. I’m glad you’re asking. He’s going to turn it down. We politely decline. And one day, you know, maybe I’ll be in a place in my life where I can angrily decline. And that’ll be the dream.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

You know, Ali, as we’ve kind of, you know, explored all these facets of who you are and the work that you do and the person that you’ve become and these kinds of incredible, serendipitous, surprising life experiences that have brought you to this this place, I want to come back to that question that your daughter asked you. And you say that, you know, you call yourself a cultural Muslim. And you had this really successful one man show called Muslim Interrupted. And you know, Muslim Interrupted, when I first heard about it, my ears pricked, because there’s something in that phrase that explicitly tells us that this thing called Muslim is a journey. It’s a process. It’s something that has to unfold. And I guess my question is, what does it mean for you to be a cultural Muslim? And I guess, do you still feel interrupted?

ALI HASSAN: 

I don’t feel interrupted. I feel centered. I feel very centered. I have a respect for Islam. I have a respect for those who practice, and I hope that people have a respect for me in my non-practitioning. The challenge, of course, is you can’t pass cultural Muslim off to your children, like because cultural Muslim, it took me decades, man. It took me actual decades faced with discrimination, faced with prejudice. How did I react? How did I process all that? Faced with all my sort of own ups and downs and questioning and sitting there and like, what does this mean to me? I’m reading the Qur’an right now. Why am I reading the Qur’an? Why am I getting back to the Qur’an? Why did I have this, like, guttural reaction to people who told me things about, like, you shouldn’t do this. You know, the prophet said this and why was I…I mean, all these emotions and hours and hours and hours spent wrestling with my identity, I just can’t be like, “Yeah, kid, just, you know, eat whatever you want, drink whatever you want. You’re a cultural Muslim.” That’s not fair to them. You know, that’s not- it just took me too long to get to it myself. So really, it’s my goal now, and I feel like my wife and I our role are to…our roles are to approach religion and faith with respect and teach our kids to have a respect for it and if they’re interested in pursuing further, you know interest in the religion, to encourage that to its fullest. Because at the end of the day, you know, I mean, reading is such a huge part of my life. Anything you read, you read a book, and often you come out of it a different person. You’re not the same person. The things you’ve learned and experienced along the journey of a book change you. And so that’s the way I look at anything connected to religion. It can change you and, you know, we give them the tools, hopefully, where anything changes them for the positive, not the negative. Nothing sort of brings them down or makes them angry or, you know, dismayed or depressed. So, we just, yeah, we live with respect for others and hope that we get the respect, too, regardless of what we do and as I say, cultural Muslim, it’s not, it’s not a cop out. It’s not like I’m Muslim in name only. It’s, I am Muslim in my art, in my food, in my comedy, in my identity. I don’t shy away from any of it. But the practice of the religion has not been something that I’ve taken to, and I’ve come to terms with that.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

I love the title of your book Is There Bacon in Heaven? I actually think that it’s a really interesting theological question, actually. And it opens up the doors for all kinds of fantastic and important and wonderful conversation. And so I’m so pleased that you and others are asking those questions, because I think they do make us think and they feel off the wall. But actually, when you get into them, we’re like, no, these are really sensible questions, that kind of really stress test, you know, our assumptions about our faith and our confession and our belief that it’s sometimes those kind of funny, weird, you know, queries and inquiries that actually really prick something much deeper about ourselves.

ALI HASSAN: 

I agree. And, you know, I knew I was on to something because when I would ask it, the response would be like, bakwas na karo, “don’t talk nonsense.”

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

Don’t give me crap.

ALI HASSAN: 

Yeah. I don’t want to hear your crap. And so, I was like, I think I might be onto something. I just got a real reaction out of my chacha just now. But anyway, you’re like, I’m not getting any answers here, but I know I got a response. I might be onto something.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

Ali, who or what would you like to welcome into your guest house?

ALI HASSAN: 

The two qualities that I need to work on most, according to my wife and I must say I agree, are patience and empathy. And I would welcome anybody who tests either my patience or empathy into my guest house. Because the easy route is to just be like, get these people out of here. I can’t wait till they leave. This is a nuisance. But if you want to test your mettle as a person, you want to test your character. You know, those are important traits. And, you know, I was saying that my chacha would be like, bakwas na kar, but I’m sometimes that same guy when my kids are like, “What are we having for supper?” And I’ll be like, “You know what we’re having supper? We’re having supper for supper, so you don’t worry about it. You want me to hear me say turnips? No, because you can have anxiety about turnips for 4 hours and I don’t want to hear it. We’re eating what we’re eating.” So, I get very sort of rigid in my approach to certain things. In my head I try to run a house like it’s 1984. You know, everybody toughen up. You don’t have to be. But at some point, I think empathy would be a nice thing. And it’s nice for the people who are required in the moment to hear that from somebody.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK: 

It’s funny how our upbringing dies hard, doesn’t it sometimes?

ALI HASSAN:

Hmm it really does.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK:

Ali Hassan that this has been this has been really wonderful. Thank you so much for joining me on This Being Human.

ALI HASSAN: 

Thank you, Abdul-Rehman. I appreciate it so much. I really enjoyed being here. Thank you.

ABDUL-REHMAN MALIK VOICEOVER: 

Thanks for listening to This Being Human. You can find links to some of Ali’s work in the show notes. This Being Human is produced by Antica Productions in partnership with TVO. Our Senior Producer is Kevin Sexton, with production assistance from Abhi Raheja. Our Executive Producer is Lisa Gabriele. Mixing and sound design by Phil Wilson. Original music by Boombox Sound. Stuart Coxe is the president of Antica Productions. Katie O’Connor is TVO’s senior producer of podcasts. Laurie Few is the executive for digital at TVO. This Being Human is generously supported by the Aga Khan Museum, one of the world’s leading institutions that explores the artistic, intellectual and scientific heritage of Muslim civilizations around the world. For more information about the museum go to www.agakhanmuseum.org. The Museum wishes to thank Nadir and Shabin Mohamed for their philanthropic support to develop and produce This Being Human.